Adam MacLean: Hey Peepadoodles, welcome to Find Your Light, a Post Shame podcast. I'm your host. Adam MacLean. Find Your light is a show where we shine a light on shame and imagined Post Shame world in Act one, we'll meet a Post Shame warrior. Someone who I think is up to something special and it has a tool to teach us to help dismantle shame.
Then an act two, we'll play a little game of armchair quarterback by re-examining someone's public shaming through the lens of PostShame If they had had access to this tool before their downfall, do we think they could have come out a better leader and helped others dealing with something similar? We'll see.
And now on with the show. Peeadoodles, welcome to Act two of my conversation with candidate for New York State Assembly, District 73 May Malik. Buckle up for this conversation. We cover a lot of territory in this Act to game of armchair quarterback. One note, before we jump into the interview, several times in the conversation
I say the term emphatic consent, but what I meant to say was enthusiastic consent. If you're not familiar with that terminology, here is a definition from rainn's website. Enthusiastic consent is a newer model for understanding consent that focuses on a positive expression of consent. Simply put enthusiastic consent means looking for the presence of a yes, rather than the absence of a no for more information, I've included a link to rainn's help doc on understanding consent in the show notes without further ado on with the show.
We are back because in Act two of Find Your Light, we take someone's public shaming or scandal or downfall. And we re-examine it through a PostShame lens because we pretend in like a game of armchair quarterback. If we could have gotten to them before it broke, what's the advice we would offer them. And you and I talked a lot in our preparation for this that we wanted to dissect a story that had to do with accusations of sexual harassment.
And the point of this is not to absolve people like, PostShame's mission is not that everyone release their nudes and it's not to like, let like sexual abusers off the hook like that. That's not the point. However, uh, in thinking about Scott Stringer, who was a Mayoral candidate in 2021, he had a long history of public service, but accusations of sexual misconduct kind of tanked his candidacy at the very end.
And we just want it to be very clear that this isn't about just letting him off the hook it's about, if we could guiding him to a more powerful stance of leadership. So he could have dealt with this and helped other people dealing with something similar. Yeah. So when I say the name, Scott Stringer, like what comes up for you?

May Malik: Oh, I love Scott Stringer. I'm just going to keep it real. Yeah. Because, so when I

AM: I love that, start bold.

MM: Straight up, yeah, I love Scott Stringer, I really, really do. I, I'm not going to front. I'm not going to be dishonest. And I know I'm not alone.

AM: He was dropped after these, uh, misconduct allegations came out. He was just

MM: His endorser's immediately some of his early, so here's the thing with Scott. As a young, progressive person of color in government and in politics, Scott is a personal hero. He's done so much for our communities,

AM: Even though he's a white dude, who's currently in his sixties?

MM: Even though he's a white dude, cause he, he had good progressive policies at a time where they were deeply unpopular and he was the only person in the Mayor's race that was able to galvanize unions, activists and moderate Dem voters. He is a reformer and a progressive like his career speaks for itself. And he was doing so well in that race. I've truly, it was his to win, I think. And what was awesome was to see the slew of endorsements from young Progressive's all over the state. That was what really sealed the deal, because I think there were a bunch of us who were like, oh, well, you know, is this some of the same old or a carer as, as something new, but with that stamp of approval from some of the young fresher voices in Albany, it just really, I thought made him a front runner.
There's just so much excitement. So when the allegations came out, it was devastating. It was really, really devastating. It was hard for a lot of people.

AM: Scott Stringer was a state assemblyman. He was Manhattan borough president, which was how I first kind of learned about his name. And then he was comptroller. So he's like in a way, very nerdic like, like a very, like, I wouldn't call him like the most magnetic person on the planet. And he's like, uh, just a tried and true, like

MM: Public servant.

AM: Public servant. So when he was running for Mayor, he had a woman come out, this is in the spring right before the primary.

MM: Three weeks before the primary. Okay. So this is April 28th.

AM: Okay. Maysoon is here for facts, but the allegation was from an incident that was 20 years prior. And you and I both know when women come forward with these allegations, they often don't have anything to gain it. Having your name dragged in the paper, having your, your character questioned, having all your motives questioned when you come out about this thing that is traumatic.

MM: No, nothing to gain.

AM: Nothing to gain. So we want to believe her, right?

MM: Yeah.

AM: In a few weeks later, another allegation comes out. That's like 30 years old. Yeah. And when you read these accounts, you hear stories of women saying, seeing this guy on the news, seeing him speak publicly. Yeah. It's retriggering for them.
It, it brings up this thing from their past and they just feel like they have to speak out there. It's fair. So I think in the context of Post Shame, Scott doing opposition research on himself. Well, I really wonder, did he not know that these things were in his past. Could he have said, could he have stood up and said, I'm a guy who in my twenties and the nineties in my thirties, in the early two thousands, you know, I may have had relationships with women where consent was questionable. And if any women need to come forward to talk to me about it, I want to stay in this conversation.

MM: But that's only if he in this brings me back to one of the, in his early progressive endorsers who was one of the first to quickly turn their back on him. I'm not going to say their name, but they made the statement months later that people can experience the same thing differently. And so even there was an acknowledgement and

AM: Can we just like hold space for that statement for a second, because it's actually huge. People can experience things differently. And how do you stand up for the public servant and for the woman who experienced something that we wish she wouldn't have, that we need to speak about more so that it stops it's happening.

MM: But if, if you don't think that what you did was harmful, why would you even go back and go, this incident happened. It blindsided him.

AM: You do opposition research with blind spots. So how do we do opposition research and which by the way, is a term I'm using because that's like the inside baseball term, like opposition research is what you do on someone you're running against.
I'm talking about doing opposition research on yourself. Pretend that you are your adversary in a political race. What are you worried? I mean, the theme of Post Shame is look for something in your, in your past. You worry with leak on the internet and leak it on your own with context. Yeah. Share a story of strength and leadership that helps other people dealing with something similar and then stay in the conversation to see if we can make progress.

MM: Right. First of all I'm speaking as someone who is a survivor, obviously, have I talked about intimate partner violence and sexual assault and also sexual harassment in the workplace. Now, these allegations were not about sexual harassment in the workplace. I think had they been at this? It would have been a different conversation.
I think because they, they were two incidents that happen 20 plus and 30 plus years ago, not in the workplace, in a social situation. Democrats just hold our electeds and candidates to much higher standards than our Republicans do.

AM: No, I can't. I mean, one day we're going to get to it. The Al Franken story, my girlfriend, Kiersten Gillibrand. It is such a story,

MM: such a story.

AM: It is such a story. We're just, you know, I'm putting it out in the universe Kiersten can you come on? And by the way, Al Franken, can you come on, come on, come on the pod. Cause we got stuff to think about.

MM: I like Al too,

AM: I like Al too, I also love Kiersten.

MM: I love Kiersten. So, you know, our people, here's the, here's the thing about Scott.

AM: Yeah. So Scott's ringer.

MM: As if I know him personally, I do not, but a again, like he's someone I've long admired and I am someone who, I mean, with everything that happened with Cuomo, I was like, get this guy out of government, right. There was a repeated pattern of abusive behavior that was terrible in a toxic environment that was promoted and kept intact by his people. Whereas these were two incidents between him and a person. He thought he was consensually involved in and a person who felt that her no's weren't being heard or her body language wasn't being understood or she was being, and that's, that's absolutely super serious with that said it does appear that those were those isolated incidents and there hasn't been anything.
In Scott's history ever since and in a situation like that, why don't we want people to take some responsibility say I'm realizing like he held that presser with his wife, so he didn't get ahead of it. Right.

AM: And here we go. It's so it's, so this is where it all falls apart the, after the, after the story, and then you stand up with your wife and she

MM: Who's amazing, who's a survivor, but it, it read out, it came across as lacking contrition. Cause there, cause I feel like there were these four camps with Scott. There was the camp that was like, we're done with him. The, just the sniff of any allegation like this, that signals culpability we're absolutely.

AM: It's like the meme, like Ronan Farrow is you have a missed call from Ronan Farrow. It's over like everyone's yeah.

MM: And there are people were like, it's over then there was a camp that's still voted him for him and supported him, but just maybe kept quiet about him. And then there was a camp that stuck by him, no matter what, in fact went so far as to like, maybe invalidated not believe we have a woman's experience. Which is now the move ever, ever, ever. And then there's those who were just unsure because they love Scott, but it's like

AM: Just like a run of the mill voter. Well, I heard that the old white guy touched someone. That's bad. That's a true sentence. I would say that.

MM: And then they'd also say, but it happened 30 years ago. Has he changed? There was, you know, a lot of that happening

AM: And the sexism that reeks of beat people being like, no, that's too, too long ago.

MM: That's too long.

AM: That doesn't count.

MM: Yeah, it should always count always. So that presser, I think for that camp. They needed a little bit more contrition from him. If he had said, clearly I behaved in a way that I thought was acceptable, but it turned out to be harmful. And I clearly have learned, and I'm thankful that I haven't experienced I've done anything like that again. And I promise to be an ally and a supporter in it. I'm going to learn.

AM: Yeah but it also might be opening Pandora's box for him. I'm going to go stand in the shoes of an older white man, something I'm unfortunately adjacent to. So, so just picture anyway, you know, but like standing in a shoe being like, uh, okay, well then it turns out maybe I've had more experiences like this, where I don't know.

MM: But he's not the only one.

AM: No, instead of sweeping it all under the rug and thinking you can cancel people, which isn't real.

MM: Exactly.

AM: We have to find a way to engage these people,

MM: Yes, we should. And here's the thing. I honestly believe that Scott has the ability to engage in that conversation. I do. I think he's a thoughtful and nuanced person, but here's what I think happened. Two things, his early endorses dropped him immediately. I mean, when you, when people just back off of you like that, that kills your campaign. And the second thing is the first, the allegations came out weeks before the election.
That is not enough time to go. How do we deny this? But also respect the experience of the woman who experienced it and who is alleging these things. And how do we then use this as an opportunity to. To take responsibility for the bad behavior that happens in politics. And that happened long ago and a commitment to change and, and committing and helping other men in politics and in government, um, stay away from there because you know, it happened at a time where so many men in politics and in the entertainment industry were being, there was a reckoning nationwide.
Right. And it continued and it remains intact. I think that's amazing. But as when we compare, there was like a, sort of a comparison happening at the time. Like what's what, what is alleged that Scott did? Is that bad? Yes. It's highly inappropriate in an actually harassment. Right. And according to a one-woman, assault, that is bad.
And could they have experienced it differently? Yes. I believe them both. Right. I really do. But when we, it didn't feel as radioactive, right. As like.

AM: What I'm fixated on right here is like what you're describing of the three weeks, the few months before. That's why I want to build a PostShame world. And that's why I want to keep this conversation going. If someone like Scott knew about Post Shame and knew that he had to do this examination earlier, this could have been dealt with totally differently and true dynamic restorative justice model would be him saying come forward, who needs to talk to me about this? May I have an opportunity to apologize.
May I learn your version of the story because I'm going to be running for office. And if seeing my face on TV retriggers you it turns out I got to go make those amendments. It turns out I need to be taught. It's 2022 the internet is making everything incredibly loud, incredibly fast. It's screaming at you, screaming.
We must create an environment. Where people are saying a gross, a distillation would be like, I'm looking for my accusers. Not because I'm trying to intimidate you because I want to go to the, I mean, I'm picturing Scott Stringer. I like the 92nd street like be like, like talking to these women.
I mean, these women are also bad-asses. You read these New York Times profiles of them detailing the allegations and exactly, like you said, I believe both.

MM: Of course,

AM: We live in a world where gray area is absolutely

MM: It does exist. Not in all cases. This is just a case where,

AM: Of course not. But in this case it exists. Scott are, are nice enough public servant who like, is it okay that I'm just like tripping over it because I'm just like,

MM: People are still tripping over it.

AM: Thank you. People are still tripping. Over tire. Culture is tripping. So I am here to say old white dudes were coming for you. We're really not stopping. So please take a look, , please join us, please believe women.

MM: And we need someone to lead. And I really think Scott is that perfect person, frankly. I hope that he jumps back into public life. I really do.

AM: And you think he's got the chutzpah to stay in the conversation?

MM: I really believe, uh, maybe you should talk to him,

AM: You heard it here first, you're invited on the pod. And so are your accusors. But they get a separate room because we're not here for like exposure therapy. Gotcha. Journalism. This is also not journalism.

MM: Because I don't think he had the time. I think he went into defensive mode, which is understandable. Listen, I'm running a campaign, certainly not at the level of a Mayoral campaign, but if I've experienced something being said about me, that was not true. And it really angered me. And my first instinct was to just defend myself.

AM: How do you balance that with two different truths?

MM: By doing what you just said, I think. And which is what I hope Scott would do if he does decide to, yes, this is me going Scott come back into public office because we really do. He, he is a true progressive, and I think is someone who could be that example of I behaved badly.
Many many years ago, even, even if I didn't experience it in that way, I harmed someone I'm learning about it,

AM: I'm learning about consent, I'm learning about the way power dynamics, influence sexual relationships.

MM: Exactly. And also, I mean, these, these weren't emphatics, uh, um, consent. Something talked about in the nineties,

AM: We all learned about emphatic consent sent like 20 minutes ago.

MM: Like I think I learned about emphatic. Yes, exactly. The first time I ever learned about consent was I think there was salt and pepper song or something like that. Right? Like don't we want people to redeem themselves. Don't we want people to learn and change. Cause I also think there is a

AM: America loves redemption stories, but it loves a messy redemption story.

MM: I see what you're saying.

AM: America loves a fall from grace and they love seeing them come out of it better. Yeah. That's I feel a little cheap because I'm actually talking about reckoning.

MM: That's different.

AM: Reckoning takes longer. You do not have three weeks before primary day to do reckoning. So again, I'll say it one more time. This is the pull quote from the episode old white dudes were coming for ya. So you might as well join us, figure it out, stay in the conversation. Find a way to be an example of the changing conversation, the evolving, the growing conversation around consent

MM: And be a leader about that.

AM: Be a leader, not just to insulate yourself, to actually advance the conversations. I want to see Scott stringer say I learned something today. And I'm sorry, and I bet it's happened other times. I still want your vote.

MM: And do you think that would change things with the electorate? He cause he ended up having,

AM: How's this, if your campaign slogan is, I hate cancel culture too, but you're not just like some agro like, um, anti woke person. Yes. I mean, I think that would be so refreshing.

MM: Right? It's authenticity. People want it and see, Scott, I really do believe is the one to do it. Not everybody. I mean, look at Anthony Weiner. I mean, that guy actually committed some really terrible crimes.

AM: Anthony Wiener is dissected in Episode Two

MM: and three of this podcast, ladies and gentlemen. Fantastic. But I think Scott is one of those cases where I want to see him bounce back. I know he has the, again, I don't know him personally, but I believe in my heart as him because he is a personal public servant hero of mine. And I've seen the way he's led and it's just been an honor to watch him. I know he has it in him to have that conversation.
And I hope he does because really there's no better person than him because he didn't lose everybody. He still is loved by a lot of people in the city. And they're. Yeah. And so I hope that he can be the one to have this conversation authentically camera pan to Adam.

AM: Scott, you can visit PostShame dot org to learn about the six steps of Post Shame. You can. Scott probably lives on the Upper East Side. So you can vote for May Malik.

MM: I hope he's in my district.

AM: Exactly. And May, Maysoon Thank You so much for doing this and thank you for being an example of a person

MM: Do I have to go?

AM: We could stay here all day. I'd love to invite you to, just to be a co-host however you have a campaign to run.

MM: I do. I have to go back home, meet with my team.

AM: Thank you for speaking authentically and thank you for staying in the conversation and thank you for teaching me things. Every single PostShame conversation I have, I feel like I, become more enriched by learning about other people's experiences and how they experienced the mission. And I'm just so excited to have it continue to grow.

MM: You are just like this beautiful light in my life. I'm so glad that we met.

AM: Well, Hey, Find Your Light turn towards the light. So this is this for the YouTube. Get all the light going. Thank you so much. Love you.
Peepadoodles, how do you feel after listening to that? I feel clearer on what Post Shame is and listening back. I also hear how eager I am to get quote old white guys on board with the mission. We're six episodes into the show, more have been recorded. And I got to say, I don't have any old white dudes planned for interviews yet.
I'm joking. When I say old white guys were coming for ya, but am I. It's kind of passe to single out a group like that. But I think if the offhanded comment is really just speaking to the fact that there are existing power structures that don't serve any of us, the idea of the patriarchy harms everyone, even men.
When I think about it, Andrew Cuomo is my dream guest because I got to say he's like the poster child for toxic masculinity, like, sorry, a person with a brain and toxic masculinity. We have a former president who is like toxic masculinity formed into a human being and then animated. But Andrew Cuomo is a really interesting figure.
I remember during the early days of the pandemic, I like didn't he win a daytime, Emmy for best daddy telling us what to do during a pandemic award. I just remember watching him and thinking this is us. He was drunk on power in some ways he was just like a liberal Trump. And then he wrote the book and I got to say, watching him fall.
No one has that kind of fall from grace without making like a bazillion enemies that were freely eager to drop you. I mean, he's a bully I'm purposefully excluding kind of the real allegations of sexual harassment, because I'm just focusing on the fact that he's planning a comeback. And in order to do that, He would need to fully take responsibility for like his whole personality.
To get my vote, he would need to spend like a year long apology tour saying I grew up in a political family where machismo and power over we're the currencies. He needs to say the sentence. I was raised to be a bully and I want to change. And this might be because I went to high school and was relentlessly bullied. So I'd like study bullies.
I mean, I later went on to become a gay man who pursued dudes romantically, who kind of symbolized my bullies. If I told you how many tall idiots I've slept with, who wear basketball shorts around the apartment, you'd call me out. It's definitely a pattern. I don't need to do like a Post Shame tour about that pattern, but it is indeed a pattern I digress.
Anyway. Anyway, I've studied bullies and that's the moment we're in. Power over is stale A F. And I know that that might seem like a simple statement to make when there are totalitarian and right-wing regimes popping up all over the globe and kind of like heavy fisted Trumpism is very appealing to a lot of people who want daddy to tell them how to think and what to do.
But I don't know. Republican Democrat, everyone everywhere hates cancel culture. And it's not real. You can't disappear people, people are complicated and they all have inherent worth. And our fellow citizens deserve compassion. So here's the pitch, old white dudes, Al Franken, Andrew Cuomo, and especially Scott Stringer, who, if he listens to this, I hope he doesn't like throw his headphones across the room and give up.
I hope he realizes that he occupies a unique space. There's an opportunity. Come forward and listen, model this behavior. Take up space for an evolving conversation around consent and how it's changed over the years of being in public service and declare what you commit to in order to continue to help create a society that works better for everyone.
Cause again, one more time, the patriarchy hurts everyone, including men. I wish more men would say that they hate the patriarchy too. I wish more men would say that they hate having to be a bully in order to get something done. You know, whatever they think is getting something done. I'm sure Andrew Cuomo's apology tour would be him saying, but you know, this is what you gotta do to get the job done.
This is leadership, but that's BS. We need to get some more rad kind, thoughtful, empathetic men and women and everyone in between working towards progress. We're in this together.
And if you want to be in the PostShame movement with me, maybe you have ideas for guests or feedback. Drop me a line. I'm not hard to find, and you can send me an email. At Adam @ postshame . org. Post Shame is made by some really awesome, empathetic and creative humans.
Our brand design is by Veta and Saloni.
Our social media manager is Jose Rodriguez Solis who's on Instagram and TikTok @ CAC ID O E,
and our theme music composer and editor is Zach Walker.
I'm Adam MacLean I'm on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok all of it @ AdamMacAttack and Post Shame. And if you're listening to this in a podcast app, you know how to get your podcasts, but please subscribe and rate and leave a review until next time, no matter how you're feeling up, down or sideways, whatever it is, just find your light.
Just turn towards the light. If you're having the worst day ever. Like literally find a lamp and just turn towards it and close your eyes. And if you want snap, a selfie and just feel good for a minute, Find Your Light, get it, get it, get it. All right, love y'all until next time Bye!.