Adam MacLean: Hey Peepadoodles! Welcome to Find Your Light a PostShame podcast. I'm your host Adam McLean. Find Your Light is a show where we shine a light on shame and imagine a PostShame world in Act 1, we'll meet a Post Shame warrior. Someone who I think is up to something special and has a tool to teach us to help dismantle shame.
Then an Act 2, we'll play a little game of armchair quarterback by re-examining someone's public shaming through the lens of PostShame if they had access to this tool before their downfall, do we think they could have come out a better leader and helped others dealing with something similar? We'll see.
And now on with the show. Hey, peepadoodles Thank You so much for coming back for another episode of Find Your Light. Today, my guest is Jen Winston. She is a prolific on Instagram. That's how I first met her. And during pandemic she wrote a book and I think it's totally awesome. And I've said it before. Any coming out story is a beautiful PostShame moment. And her coming out as bisexual is fascinating, interesting and funny. So I can't wait for you to hear this interview. Enjoy it. Here is Jen Winston.
Welcome to another episode of Find Your Light at PostShame podcast today, our guest is Jen Winston, who is the author of greedy notes from a bisexual who wants too much. Jen, welcome to the show. How are you?

Jen Winston: I'm good. I'm so happy to be here.

AM: Thank you so much for doing this. The point of Find Your Light is to shine a light on shame and bring awareness to a Post Shame warrior.
That's what I think you are. I think you're an amazing person because anyone coming out about anything is a PostShame warrior and coming out as bisexual is pretty bad-ass and in Act 2, we will also dissect a scandal of public downfall and I'll get your insights on that. But first, coming out as Bi in this book, how long did this process take? And why'd you write a book about Bisexuality?

JW: How long did the coming out process take?

AM: I mean, I guess you have to come out first or maybe you were writing a book and then you like figured out.

JW: No, I did come out first, but I will say writing the book helped me be like more secure in my bisexual. I came out in 2019.
I mean, I'd been like considering whether I wanted to come out officially or not for a very long time. Um, and I just sort of did it one day and I did it through Instagram because I'm a millennial and I just like, you know, wrote the caption and went. Also, there was something happening in the world at that time.
Like, I believe it was in Bhutan where queer people were being prosecuted for being queer. And it just made me be like, why am I like denying this from myself? Like, I'm in an area where I have a lot of privilege and a lot of safety to be able to do this and it might help other people. So that was part of the motivating factor, but I ultimately wanted to comeout officially. Cause I wanted to like force myself to start going on queer dates and like being queer. Cause I was kind of like defaulting to dating men a lot of the time. Um, and that sucks and I wanted to get myself out of it, but I kept just like finding my way back.

AM: So you kind of used Instagram to like hold yourself accountable. Like the public statement.

JW: But in hindsight, that's like a very flawed way to think about it. Right? Cause like there are bisexual people in monogamous relationships that appear heterosexual from the outside so.

AM: The whole passing and then deciding is it worth the risks of coming out.

JW: Exactly. Exactly. So I, well, I was hoping it would like push me, uh, and it did a bit and.
Yeah, I guess it did a lot because later that year I met my partner who I've been with since November of that year. And then I wrote the book from 2020 to 2021. And now here we are in a whirlwind.
AM: The book is so funny. It is so funny. And it's, it's interesting that, I mean, you call it a memoir and you do kind of like dig back a little bit.
It was really interesting for me because in our age group, our generation of millennials, you know, there aren't a lot of memoirs for people in our age group. I'm a little older than you. I'm 40, but it was just so interesting to get into your reflections on high school. Because usually if you like read a memoir, it's like, you know, before cell phones, you know, like, I feel like our generation is now coming of age in a way where, like you talking about high school really hit for me.
I was like, oh my God, You really dive into all the systems that you were living in, you do a lot of work to explain like, oh wow. I was just trying to be this person to like, fit into all these things, to fit into your friend group, to like date guys by default. How are you brave enough to like dig into all that?

JW: Well, I knew that I needed to talk about my childhood in a memoir, so I just was like buckle up and I call it a memoir because that's sort of what the genre is called. Like, I actually have a lot of issues with that term. There's this assumption that like to write a memoir, you have to have gone through some like great tragedy.
But so many of my favorite books have been like hilarious essays. And that's what I wanted to write was just like a, thank you. But I also wanted it to have some sort of like, meaning and talk about self-discovery in some way. I've written like 10 book proposals, uh, before this one is somewhere between seven and 10.

AM: Okay. But that's a good reminder to everyone listening, that like for every one book that's come out were probably 10 book proposals behind it that didn't come out yet.

JW: And they shouldn't have, um, like they, but they were all kind of like, here's my sexcapades with men. And like, that was kind of the plot. And then at the end it would always be like, wait, I'm bisexual. Like I don't have to be only dating men.

AM: It was the fifth paragraph of the essay. Like in conclusion. I am also bisexual.

JW: Basically. Uh, yeah. Um, and so I, after I came out and learned more about bisexuality, I was like, oh, bisexuality is actually deep and interesting enough to write an entire book about and have it be kind of the lens for everything I talk about, because I also had one book proposal within those, like sexcapades, there was one that was more about like unlearning in a general sense and like unlearning all these different systems that shape the world that we live in. And when I kind of got to learn about bi- politics, I was like, oh, this is a great lens for unlearning in general.
Like, because what bisexuality is about to me is about challenging all types of biases. Part of the reason that I wanted to write this book is because I wanted to challenge the assumption that bisexuality is like reinforcing the gender binary, because that's also another thing that made me not want to come out is I was like, I don't want to have this sexuality if I'm like telling people that, like the only two genders exist.
But once I started learning about what radical Bi scholars were writing, they were writing that bisexuality challenges, all binaries in general. And that's how I see myself as BI. A lot of people use the term pan and I, I, a lot of times people ask me what the difference is. And like, frankly, the difference is like how it hits for you.
Ultimately, as I was writing, I realized like, oh, challenging binaries is really like the thesis here that goes through everything. I did not answer your question about high school at all.

AM: No, I want to acknowledge that, like, it seemed brave and like, you were like, so ready to dive into it. And then me as a reader being in like the same generation, I'm like, oh, wow, this is the first time we're like getting to like dive into this. So when my memoir comes out one day, it will be inspired by you looking back in high school.

JW: It'll be, I mean, honestly, everyone should write a memoir. It's really helpful to like, process.

AM: So that's the PostShame advice. It's like go to therapy, write a memoir. It doesn't have to be published, but write it.

JW: They're kind of the same thing. Like as I was writing, I was like, I don't deserve to be riding this. There's so much about men in this book. Oh my God. And then I was like, you know what, that's imposter syndrome. And you need to write this down because this is related to what you're trying to say. And that's how I got the first chapter, which is called a story to ease the authors imposter syndrome. So that was literally like a note to myself that I wrote while writing. And it ended up becoming the first chapter.

AM: Thank you. You're putting it into words that, um, like in my notes here, I've just written the word, the tall men thing. Like you're so quick to admit in this book that there's a lot about men sexcapades with men, but that you were like recognizing all your biases when you're like, I shouldn't like this guy or all these guys are going on dates with, or just like not awesome dudes. And you're like, but he was tall when I walked up to him. So like it, that then resulted in an eight hour date, you know?

JW: Also, it was really interesting for me to reflect that. Like I just kept going through those motions with CIS men. And then when I was dating, when I started dating women, I wouldn't be able to tolerate like any type of anything other than like perfection on the date.
I mean, I had a less than perfect date and I was like, oh, I guess I'm straight. Like there was this defaulting to being straight that I just kept kind of going with, even though my dates with men were like also terrible. It was pretty much like dating was terrible regardless of gender. And I just kind of assumed that that meant I was straight.
And that's how dating was supposed to be. And I guess to answer your high school question point, I didn't really realize how much like womanhood had shaped my identity. I kind of thought that I'd gone through all the processing about patriarchy and everything. Uh, in early years of the Trump administration.
And I was sorta like, okay, I've moved on from like, thinking about gender all the time. Like now with all these other like intersections of identity and I, yeah, it turns out it is. And I think something that, that I learned while I was writing, this is like a lot of Bi people go through. Process of trying to figure out like how our sexuality fits into things.
And once we get comfortable sitting with those binaries, like sitting between those binaries or somewhere separate to the binaries of gay and straight, we can think in a non binary way. And now I identify as a non-binary femme that like changes from day to day, but I just don't really see the label as woman as something that I like. Love. I still identify as a CIS person. Cause I like have a lot of CIS privilege, but that's kind of the trajectory that the book followed. And while I was writing it, I found this really interesting trend on Tik Tok, where all these Bi people were like, there was a meme where it was like finally figured out like my sex-, my, that I'm bisexual, like great.
And then. Cut to video of themselves, sneaking in the back and being like pronouns, like, and, and it was so interesting to see this like personal journey I had mirrored by a meme, like that's the plot of my book.

AM: So you're bringing up a few things that I absolutely loved in your book. Let's go to binaries really quick.
One of the reasons I think your Bi coming out story is so bad-ass is that that's what Post Shame is trying to do as well is, is refused this good, bad labeling. Like we are ourselves. We are always evolving. We grow out of things. The process of Post Shame is looking in your past, seeing what things you've done in your past could affect your future.
And then you choose what to do like in the present. So it's all gray area, it's all, you know, um, accepting people that they've had a journey. And so I just think it's so rad that all of the double standards, your experience of sexuality and gender have brought up. There's just so many double standards. And you're trying to figure out where you like, sit in them.

JW: The, Bi theorist who influenced me the most, their name is Shiri Eisner. And they talk a lot about how bisexuality is, especially for women challenges, this idea of sexuality. And that's actually why I titled the book greedy because it allowed me to kind of reclaim a Bi stereotype and reclaim a sex positive mindset at the same time, which is something that I am really passionate about in my understanding of just womanhood in general, like sex positivity has really shaped the way that I move through the world.

AM: When you quote them, I felt it so deeply of being like, yeah, what's wrong with being greedy, like in this patriarchal mindset where women have to be subservient and aren't owed their sexuality because it's just...
I mean, what's more bad-ass than, than lesbian-ism , like just being like, I don't need no, man.

JW: Yeah. I, I think the identity of lesbian-ism has always been very interesting to me because I never felt like a lesbian, but I like wish so much that I just could be one. And one of my early readers of the book. Was sorta like, it's so interesting the way you talk about this.
Cause there's never like a, like a, I was ashamed of my queerness. It's just that I didn't think I was queer enough to be queer.

AM: That is so millennial. That is so hard time. That's the change right?

JW: But I do think there was an element of shame that I probably didn't unpack in the book as much as I could have because all of my friends were queer.
Like most of my friends were CIS gay men and I was always kind of surrounded by queerness and I just always felt like that was like my world, but I never thought I could claim it for myself. And so there was this other kind of shame of like, feeling like an imposter in that space. And I think a lot of like lesbian rights movements have been so Bi exclusionary because lesbian women have fought so hard to like get their own space still.
Like there are hardly any lesbian bars, like in the world, like it's still such a difficult space to exist in. And I mean, thinking about how few lesbian bars there are made me also think that there are no Bi bars, although there is. There's one in New York. And I had my book launch party there at mood ring.
Um, but also it's a great bar, but when I went, like I used to go there before the pandemic, and then I went back sort of at the end of the pandemic. And I was like, I'm way too old for this. Like, wow. But the kids are all right. I guess.

AM: Everyone's wearing cuffed jeans. Everyone's sitting in a chair wrong. Everyone's just obeying all the memes at this bar. And then Brittany Spears, extra track mood ring. It's just playing in the background.

JW: Okay. Oh my God. Great. Yeah, we love a Brittany beside here.

AM: We really do. There's so much unreleased music in her world that I can't wait for it to come out. So actually let's go to, when you were coming of age in your teens and you talk a lot about like reading all of rolling stone, having all those albums, because you really were trying to like behave within the male gaze and I couldn't help, but think about in our current era, there's so much media and there's so much media made for different subgroups of people. And there's so much more representation. And I know we're still not there. Like we're not at like parody, by any scratch, but there's just so much more content that kids these days are seeing themselves in. So what is their experience? I wonder going to be like when they have found themselves in all this media and I'm not advocating for operating within the male gaze because the male gaze has had its run.
Can we bring that to an end, but what is this world going to be like when people are like, we don't need this patriarchy BS, like w I'm just trying to imagine what it's going to look like. And I, I haven't my, my, my imagination is so far limited, like I'm, I'm trying to like dream it up. And I don't know what it's going to look like.

JW: I mean, so my partner is like five years older than me and, uh, when the, yeah, but also like a really it's very interesting.
Cause you just said you're I'm 33. Um, and yeah. And so my partner is 38 and so, uh, there's this gap between our like also my partner came out years, but like 20 years before me, so they've been out way longer than me. Um, and when we first started dating, I was like PDA and all over the place. And they were like, you can't do that.
Like they have this like safety mindset. And I was like, what?

AM: Even having come out 20 years ago occupying their identity.

JW: And, uh, and I mean, they've like sort of moved through several identities. Uh, Presented several different ways, but they have this kind of like trauma that was in, I mean, the body keeps the score.
And so I just

AM: let's just do a podcast or read his quote, all our favorite books.

JW: I just saw an amazing meme of the bugs bunny meme. Uh, oh yeah. Uh, yes we should. Um, but I saw an amazing meme that was like, I wish all you body's a very kept score. And I was like, this was made for me. But, um,

AM: I love bugs bunny, total queer, early Drag Queen.
I so vividly remember this is like pre sexuality developing, but seeing bugs in drag as like, you know, pre- 10 child and being like bugs is so cool, like gets to occupy all the things constantly pulling one over on Yosemite Sam, just like, just like so cunning. Yeah. Total, total body hero. Total queer hero.

JW: Yeah. Just like a gender fluid icon. And I actually, I watched a video about this. It's like a real thing. Like even when they did all these bugs bunny stamps, two of them were like bugs in Drag. Like it's not something they like shy away from in the franchise. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so interesting to look back at those things and be like, oh, this was potentially positive representation, but because it wasn't named it didn't feel like it.

AM: Yeah, it was dog whistling and like a weird signaling and comedy.

JW: Well, and that's actually a lot of Bi representation ends up taking that form because if you think about the writer's Axiom, show don't tell that's like what writers go to the table.
And they're like, how can we show this rather than be like, I'm bisexual. Like that feels boring. You know, it feels like lazy writing, but if you don't say it, then you show it and you show it by showing someone hookup with multiple genders, which usually like causes a scene in their relationships.

AM: You talked in the book about like you only ever saw bisexuality enacted as drama. It was only. Like being with one person hooking up with this different person, drama and SUSE. And it's like, and you thought bisexuality could only be in practice.

JW: Yeah. And so, and since I hadn't like had a relationship with a woman or another gender, I was like, I'm straight. And, and that was just kinda how I thought it had to be.
I thought I had to like have a, you know, punch card or like, uh, there, there are lots of memes about that, about like bisexuals, please be ready to show your entire hookup history at the door to prove your identity.

AM: And people asking about it on dating apps, like to, to kind of prove yourself. You talk about some lesbians, encounter your bisexuality as like hard pass, like. nope, its too complicated.

JW: It was also just sort like, uh, oh, I'm just not interested kind of thing. It was like, okay, you're still on your journey. And I kind of got that a lot. That was like, okay, good for you. But like maybe in a few years, and I, I got that like the whole time, whereas men, when I would tell it to like straight men, they would be like, this is great. They would be like, I love this. And so of course I like defaulted into that.

AM: Like they were grosser than that. Come on.

JW: Yeah, of course. And like, I did have several threesomes and it was great and I regret nothing. Um, but I like, I also, that was another reason I was afraid to come out. Cause I didn't want people to think I was having threesomes all the time because that's also what I was doing.

AM: Oh, I love that coming out at work that you're like, I don't want to come out. Cause you are going to . Think about me having threesomes, and I am, but I don't want to talk about it at work!

JW: Exactly. And I didn't want my parents to think about it. It felt like it would inform a lot about like, and I think a lot of queer people feel this way.
Like if you're straight, you don't have to talk about sex in an overt way. I mean, you can, but if you come out as queer, then immediately you're inviting people to think, how are you having sex? Uh, and like that, that's something that a lot of people deal with and there's something with the word bisexual that like makes it feel like I was so I know we're going to talk about Andrew Gillum later, but I was so like proud of him for saying the word bisexual, because it's really.
It's easier to say the word Bi in a lot of ways, because it doesn't have the word sex in it. So to actually say the whole word, I mean, it's not like, like gay people are often like I'm homosexual, you know, like it's a very,

AM: No, thats why gay is so easily digestible, especially in work context. L G B Q.

JW: Yeah. It becomes more of a culture identity thing as, and bisexual for me has always felt that way, but there hasn't really been like. A place to go with it. And, and there, I haven't been able to use it to meet other Bi people or even to like become part of the LGBTQ community. Like now I am and can, but a lot of that has to do with me being in a queer relationship.
I'm conscious of the fact that I probably wouldn't have gotten this book deal. If I'd been in a relationship with a man, if I'd been single or even if I'd been in a relationship with a woman, like I, because I'm in a relationship with a trans non binary person. That's the only visual representation of bisexuality as an identity that's not a binary identity, you know? So, uh, my partner often will like take full credit for my book because of that, which they deserve.

AM: They can have it, thank you for your help. And thank you for being part, honestly. Cheers to them for being part of the journey and allowing the visual piece to exist. Right? Like we're at this very awkward time in history where as we break down all of these binaries, this is going to be the awkward time where you're going to have to say the word bisexual, like in many different contexts, 20 years from now, you're right.
Bi theory, will have a book deal where it's, you know, all sorts of different people who look all sorts of different ways.

JW: Yeah. And I think that's another thing about bisexuality. Oh, this is like, am I really going to talk about this this much? Like it's like, cause a lot of times you get kind of shut down or silenced by people saying everyone is bisexual. And for a long time I felt like I shouldn't be talking about my sexuality because I was like, oh, everyone has like this level of.

AM: If you admit the spectrum it's like, do we have to keep talking about this? Can't we just talk about sexuality as a spectrum so that we can,

JW: Exactly. And it's like, can't we acknowledge that, like everyone's a little queer and then it's like, okay, sure.
I don't have anything to say, so I'm not going to come out. So I'm not going to like be myself. And really the thing that was shocking about coming out is I felt like. A whole person in a way that I was not expecting. Cause I didn't even realize my bisexuality was shaping my life so much. Like I hadn't, I had no idea, but then I was like, oh, I've like arrived. Like this is me.

AM: That's just like a really good reminder for myself, for anyone listening. Like there are pieces of ourselves that we haven't yet discovered, and this whole era of personal branding makes it seem like we're all supposed to know exactly who we are today. Tomorrow. You're supposed to be able to rely on me for that brand the next day. And it's going to get more likes, you know, it's, it's, it's this really intense, like no, your full self every day. And we all have something inside us that we haven't yet discovered.

JW: And I think that's what getting comfortable in my bisexuality has done for me is like getting comfortable in this confusion. Uh, like the sheer.

AM: Yeah, be greedy, be confusing. Be confused. Be greedy.

JW: Confusion is really, the like, been the most powerful for me to reclaim because, uh, I love this Shiri Eisner quote that didn't make it into the book, but it's one of my favorite quotes. Uh, they say that confused, bisexual confusion can act as a de-stabilizing agent of social change because it pushes us. I know, it's great.

AM: If you're watching this on YouTube, you can see me shimmying because I'm so excited.

JW: Um, but it got the shimmy shimmy scale, it succeeded. Um, but. Yeah. It really like challenges what binaries are and why they exist. And it forces us to like, make a choice of how we want to be. And I think so much of it for me is sitting in like, maybe, I don't know if I will ever date a CIS man again, I don't know if I'll ever date a man again, but I am constantly, like, how do I identify? You know? And so I'm, I'm worried that I, one day won't identify as bisexual anymore and then I'll like lose his book. But, but then I think about,

AM: Oh, it's out there. It's just, the second title will be like, greedy. I got everything. I wanted so many dicks,

JW: Yeah. I mean, the, I feel like when I'm worried that I'm going to lose my bisexual identity, I come back to the fact that it's not really about like who I like to sleep with. It's so much more of like a lens to look at the world and it's been really empowering for me in that way.

AM: Oh, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. And because Post Shame is really about having a lens in a way to like organize, uh, for me, it's a way to organize the way I look at the world and say like there's gray areas. We were all coming out about something. We all are worried about our past and trying to plan our future. Just a thank you. You're giving more language and more ways to stay in the gray and stay in the confusion. So thank you. That is one of the ways you're a PostShame warrior.

JW: Well, I love that you said, part of addressing shame is, is thinking about the binary way we see it. And like, we, we see it as like that's bad. That's good. And not understanding that like everyone is on the journey. When the series Girls came out, I was so mad that I didn't write it. Like I was furious.

AM: I think a lot of us were, I think a lot of us were like, this is gorgeous sucess.

JW: I also, I also hated it. I was like, I hate this because I didn't do it. Like that was like, I had so much jealousy and rage about it. Um, but ultimately, like, it made a lot of mistakes. There were so many mistakes made by that show and I look at that. And I'm like, I would've made those mistakes as well, like I would have.
And so I think like, there's, you know, that's not to say that like put people in the public eyes so they can make mistakes, but it, it is to say like, we got to get better at like, allowing this kind of like, oh, I learned spectrum. In fact, last night my partner told me something that I was doing that was transphobic.
I was like reacting to their testosterone usage. Like I had, I had kind of suggested that they like stagger the usage more or something. Um, based on this, like other pill they were trying and they were like, that's transphobic. And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. Why? And they, they explained that like often, like trans people will go to the doctor and they'll have acne and the doctor will be like, well, you should stop testosterone or something, which is like, obviously transphobic.

AM: They talk about binary thinking. It's like, well, here I've offered one solution.

JW: Exactly. I mean, and, and so I've kind of realized like, oh, that's just like, what am I I'm I'm seeing this as a, as a thing that's not like, necessary to your like, existence.
And I was really shocked that I still had kind of that bias. So I'm appreciative that my partner was able to like, share that with me and yeah. Let me grow. My partner was like, it's like really unattractive and CIS behavior right now. And I was like, okay. I agree. Like, I don't want to do it. I don't want to be like that person to you.

AM: But so great that you were allowed to have a learning moment and, and get to know your partner deeper and understand their experience more.

JW: Yeah. And I mean, I should have, I probably should have like gone away. I like Googled it, but fortunately we have that like relationship.

AM: We offer the advice on this show a lot, like go Google it, like, find it out for yourself. However, we're not perfect again. Like we're not perfect. We don't have all the information.

JW: Yeah. And I mean, it was really kind of them to like, extend that education to me.

AM: And my takeaway from that also is the reminder that so many people have certain types of medical trauma and not being listened to in medical settings. So a person of trans identity, having that experience, interacting with hormones and everything. I mean, I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about how big all those questions are and all those struggles,

JW: And like the, I can just tell you as the partner of a trans person, like the medical trauma is absurd, like it's just constant.

AM: We're here to break down binaries. We're here to sit to stop with all these, you know, this or that pink or blue. It's all hanging out in the middle. Um, one other thing would just in our little bit more time of act one, I just want to point out how important I think it is to talk about the be em' do em' thing that in same-sex partnerings that there is this, um, my, um, I have a fabulous bestie Allegra who is also identifies as bisexual.
And when I break up with an ex-boyfriend, you know, and I'm like, did I want to be that person? Did I admire them or did I want to have sex with them? And I'm always lost in this. Be em' do em', can you point out how that was for you with female partners or trying on female partners?

JW: I had no idea. There's a, there's a chapter in my book called girl crush, clinical observations. That's like written as a medical report.

AM: When it started, I was like, huh, I wonder how long this structure will work. And it totally works.

JW: Thank you. I changed it last minute. That's another one that was like the last, I rewrote that essay, like after it was copy edited and my editor was like okay, cool.

AM: No, I love the structure. Everyone pick up greedy. It, it it's so good. It's so funny. But the, the benign girl crush and the malignant girl crush it, it was such a good it's what really made me start to think about all of my early boy crushes and, and how, I don't know if I want it to be them or do them, or if it was. Yeah. And I'm so glad you were like 20 years away from that crush. So that like, now it makes sense.

JW: Although like we're like still in each other's lives in it in a light capacity, but yeah, I think it is such a confusing thing for queer people and like the phrase girl crush or like I have a girl crush on them is like so often used to just sort of make something like platonic and straight. And, uh, it's like,

AM: Actually, maybe I do want to make out with that and have them as my mentor.

JW: It's very, very true. And so I think I was kind of struggling. I had this like intense, closeness. With a female best friend growing up. And I always kind of wondered, but I also never like, was going to do anything about it.
But like I got jealous when she was like dating people and we had like huge falling out when we went away to college and went to separate colleges. I mean, it was really, really emotional and like, it was not physical in any capacity. And I wouldn't even have known how to like cross that line, but I, that is such a thing for queer people.
And I think, I always felt like, because I was still attracted to men, like the way I was like, quote, unquote, supposed to, I was just going to go for that. Whereas I've always felt like people who are like gay or lesbian. Like, at least you were, you knew not to hook up with, you know, the, the gender that everyone was telling you to.
So I didn't have that. So it was like a, an unassured ness of like, is this queer? Probably not, probably not. Like, let's just go with probably not. There are obviously many, many different bisexual experiences, but a lot of times I talk to people who have had a different type of experience, where they came out as like a lesbian or as gay.
And then they sort of like realize I'm bisexual and that's a totally different like unlearning personal unlearning arc because it's just like a completely different set of social norms. And so I always find that really interesting, like how people kind of came to the bisexual identity. I feel like people who have gone fully gay, I guess. And then kind of come out as bisexual. I feel like those people are much more developed than me. Like I, like, I like want more stories like that on TV, and I want to hear more from those people because now I pretty much only exclusively want to hear queer stories. And I want to hear more about bi-phobia within the gay and lesbian community.

AM: I'm with you. Let's write those stories. Let's be in those writers rooms and let's make the next girls. Well, we call it, what will we call it though?

JW: Maybe greedy. Maybe it can be based on the book.

AM: I love it. Let's take a little break here and then we'll come back for Act 2
We are back. So in Act 2, we talked to our PostShame warrior about someone who's had a public downfall and we play a little game of armchair quarterback. And if we could catch them right before the scandal and offer them some advice through a PostShame lens so that they could avoid a scandal or come out of it, a better leader.
Help others dealing with something similar because the whole point of Post Shame is finding something in your past that you're afraid would leak on the internet. You'll get on your own with context, you share a story of strength, leadership that shows that you're ready to lead with radical transparency.
So Andrew Gillum in Florida. Was a, I hate the word gubernatorial, but he was

JW: Wow I hate that word. I like something also, especially about the way you said it was like a especially,

AM: That's what it is, I am the problem

JW: You say it like G O O B like gubernatorial . I love it. I love it. Keep it in Post Shame.

AM: So he was running for governor in Florida and he was the democratic nominee and unfortunately he lost and it turns out. He was like, I mean, I know political candidates have to have a pretty thick skin, but he was absolutely devastated by losing this race for governor and months later, it turns out he probably was developing a problematic relationship with alcohol and had a drinking problem and was found in a hotel room in Florida with other folks who, other folks, it was other guys gay guys.
And what the public saw was a photo that the police had leaked that was of Andrew Gillum naked on a hotel room floor laying in his own vomit. And you know, the headline is former rising star who everyone thought was going to be the next Barack Obama is caught in a hotel room, you know, under the influence with these other guys who were having a meth party and someone OD-ing and Andrew Gillum goes away to rehab.
So months later, he does the season two launch of Tamron Hall's show. And does this explosive interview and his wife, RJ Gillum is part of the interview as well. And I asked Jen to kind of give her take on this because he is an open, proud bisexual now.

JW: And he came out during the interview.

AM: He came out during the interview. So, what did you think when this story first made its way to your eyeballs?

JW: Well, I definitely like followed the scandal and then I didn't, I heard about this interview and I didn't watch it. So I'm glad you sent me all seven segments of it.

AM: It's cut up on YouTube in this way where I was. I asked you remember, I was like, may I spam you with all of these links?

JW: No. Yes, you may. Um honestly, it was really interesting to see him being just so clearly like a political person, you know, but also clearly so mad. Like he, and, and his wife, RJ were both so upset that the public was making this their business. And I think that that is probably still, like, of course that's like a level of, of rage.
Like they talked a lot about like, they're sacred covenant as a couple. And the fact that, you know, other couples have open marriages, a couples of these, and they talked a lot about his bisexuality and.

AM: And they talked about the fact that they both had talked about it before they even got married and that sharing that, what they call a sacred covenant that, you know, they, they were friends first, you know, then they were lovers. Then they were married that they are so appalled that they had to share that with people.

JW: Specifically about his sexuality. And yeah, and I found that really interesting. Like at one point he had. They had, they said that RJ would not have married him. Had she known that they would have had to come out with his bisexuality publicly?

AM: She doesn't flinch when she's like, oh yeah. If I knew that this is how this was going to go, uh, it would be a no for me, dog. Like

JW: Really, it's true. I liked the way that Tamron hall was sorta like, everyone's coming for you saying you're like supporting your man without like what, you're not another one of those.
Like I thought it was really interesting that kind of side of things, because I hadn't really thought about her much in that scandal, but I also kind of loved the way that Andrew Gillum came back at Tamron when she was like, are you gay? Like what's going on? And he's like, I'm bisexual. And. I don't think he did enough justice to bisexuality, like throughout the course of the interview, but like to hear him say that proudly and for them to even talk about it in this, like, you know, political buttoned up way was still like, so, so radical for me,
especially like, as, as very visible people with like a very visible black, bisexual man, like that's very, very important and, powerful.
And it does suck that it has to be attached to this level of scandal. And it does suck that with bisexuality, there's this idea. Like I shouldn't come out until I have a reason. If you're in a relationship with, like, I know bisexual women who are in relationships with men and they don't want to come out because they don't want to act on it.
Like they don't necessarily want to open their relationship. I think 89% of bisexual women are in monogamous relationships, which is a mind blowing stat because you hear that and you hear bisexual and you think you want to have other experiences. But to the earlier point, it's really about like being wholly yourself. And we don't really allow bisexual people to have that a lot of times, because we think it has to be attached to a behavior.

AM: Right. And that when they're passing, if we're describing these, you know, bisexual women who are married to men while they're passing, they're like, I don't need another headache.
Like I don't have to, don't have to bring this up. And I think that was the calculus that Andrew Gillum and his wife, RJ went through was they were like, we're not going to come out about this because we're married. We have these three children. We love, we love what our family is. We love the advocacy we're doing running for office. I mean, he's a sweet guy and like obviously wants to be of service.
JW: He's a great poli, like I wanted him to win. He's a great politician.

AM: I definitely wanted him to win Florida, please, please be governor of Florida, Andrew Gillum

JW: Now do it now. Oh my god.

AM: So in our like armchair quarterback way, which I need to find a way to talk about this, where it doesn't intone football at all.

JW: I was going to say, you lost me, I'm like, I don't know how to proceed. Sorry,

AM: But in offering this kind of like hindsight 20, 20 advice, do we wish that Andrew Gillum, you know, say he's running for governor? You know, he has his wife, his kids, you know, his family looks this certain way. Do we think we were owed him coming out as bisexual before?

JW: Um, I mean, I don't think any queer person owes us that, but I do really wish that the narrative around bisexuality was different so that we could claim it and people would be proud of us, but that's not really what happens, a lot of times, especially in, in areas as like desexed as politics, you know?

AM: Well, actually hyper sexed because it's like this scandal is what took him down.

JW: Exactly. But it's because it's so like. We don't, we don't talk about sex in this realm that like, that it hits so hard. And I mean, that's why you have, you know, you have a few gay politicians, like, uh, Pete,

AM: Pete Buttigieg who is, who's married to his wonderful husband Chaston. And they are so, they are so cute to me these days because Pete Buttigieg fully has like secret service protection and is like traveling with Kamala Harris and like trying to do so many things, but I'm like, oh yeah, right. He's gay.

JW: Yeah. And I think they have this very, like, it's very like desexed the way that he is gay. And so you have a lot of like queer people in the public eye who are like, there's no level of like, implication of what that queerness means, which is both good and bad, I guess. Like it shouldn't have to always be tied to it,

AM: But falls in that way where like candidates are allowed to have one weird thing. Like, like they're only allowed one weird thing. Like I, it just yeah. Hillary's one weird thing was that she was a woman. And then, Buttigieg's one weird thing is that he's gay. Exactly. But like, that's how people digest political candidates. Like they're allowed to have one thing. You can't have too many. A black man was probably Andrew Gillum's one weird thing. And then, and by the way, I'm not endorsing one weird thing is like, an ok trope

JW: But I kind of like it because like reclaim weird, like, because like normal is like, oh, like in the case of like what you're talking about now, like normal being the straight CIS white men.

AM: Lady, the dog woke up for this conversation. Cause she's totally annoyed at, at the CIS normality. We're talking about.

JW: Smash the patriarchy Lady.

AM: Her name's Lady. Yeah. So, so you don't think that we were owed his bisexuality? We do wish that he could have come out about it in a way that it wasn't linked to scandal because this is another story now where like his bisexuality is wrapped up in.
What's probably a larger story about addiction and trauma and struggle because I wish he actually would have come out about the sadness of losing in a totally different way.

JW: But also like how heartbreaking to hear about that sadness. And also how heartbreaking to hear from RJ that like, people were still asking him to like, you know, do the roles of what would be a governor, like still fill in as a public figure, but like he had lost, so he didn't get a chance to grieve.

AM: Right. There was a hurricane in Florida, she talked about all these people, texting him, being like, can you help friends in Puerto Rico essentially? Yeah. And she was like, you didn't win. These people should leave you alone. And he's like, I need to be of service. I need to find a way to help.

JW: That just means you really wanted to do the work, you know, of that position and of that role. And I think they alluded to bisexuality being complicated in a way that I found it was like just a taste of what I wish they had done. Like RJ said, you know, people can understand gay, but they can't understand bisexuality. And I wish she had elaborated on that it was such a, an amazing missed opportunity.
Um, but I was just proud that he said it at all. It's like, I mean, I guess that's me totally grasping to hear that word, but also it's, it's me having seen so many politicians do this. Or like do similar things and then be like, it was a mess. It was a huge lapse in judgment. Oh my God, I can't believe it. You know, like very few of them are like, this is who I actually am. And like, it might be hard for you to hear and that I really did respect that. And I also kind of respected the like yeah, mind your business, people like approach, because I really do feel.

AM: That such a hard thing to balance this whole, like, please be out and proud. Please give us people to look to as inspiration or role models, but also you totally get to have your own life.

JW: Yeah. I mean, I think it's like if we minded our business, as a society, then it's not going to happen. I personally will not be minding my business, but if,

AM: And you and I both be like come out, if, and when you're ready, show us who you are on your own terms. But also I absolutely want to know everyone's business.

JW: But also text me like every time you go out with someone. Yeah. I think if even one society were able to mind their business, you could be able to come out and then like, have everybody drop it. And you know?

AM: Like that's what Post Shame is trying to be. That it's like come out about these things in order to kind of de weaponize them entirely. We do live in a world where the new cycle is pretty short. Yeah. Have you been canceled? Have you you're very delicate about certain terms in the book because, and I'm like, huh, I wonder if she's actually afraid of being canceled.

JW: I am, I'm not afraid of being canceled, but I am afraid of like hurting someone and that's always been the case and I've been canceled a few times. I could talk about this. Like this would be a whole other podcast. One of the times it was by someone who was pretending to be a woman of color, uh, who canceled like myself

AM: Lets not call it canceling. That's just full tilt, trolling.

JW: Trolling. There's a whole narrative about this on, on the internet. Um, it was a huge learning experience. This person was like scamming, like stealing, ask people to donate, to send kids, to see Black Panther and like then stole everybody's money. Like this person was a horrible,

AM: Yeah this is no good. Um, talk about wanting to be in people's business. I want to be in this person's business. Tell them to stop.

JW: Yeah. Well, and then like, even when I say something like that, and I'm like, this person was a horrible person. I'm like, as someone who believes in like abolition and like that everyone can be rehabilitated. Like I have to be like, oh, they're not a horrible person. They just were like dealing with a lot of things.
And again,

AM: we have to live in this gray space. Like, I don't want Jen Winston to be piled on. I don't want this, you know, online experience happen to you, but I also want to be like, can we get this person help? Can they, can they take this elsewhere?

JW: Yeah. And then the other two times were like, for things I needed to learn, like, uh, one was that I was creating a lot of like racial justice resources during June, 2020, because I had done a lot of work around like understanding how to show up for racial justice as a white person.
And I made this one post that was like shared by Kendall Jenner, ironically. Um, but it was, it was about like things I've learned about racial justice as a white person. And I also made a guidance.

AM: You taught Kendall Jenner these things. And then she took the Pepsi to the police.

JW: She did. She saved us yeah. You're welcome America. Um, and yeah, the timeline was a bit different, but yeah. Yeah. But the Kendall Jenner Pepsi moment. Is, uh, above time, it exists at all at all time out of time. So you're you're right. Um, but I also made a guide about like how to talk to white people about racism, um, because my family is I'm from Indiana and I, yeah.
And I mean, I wouldn't say that. I've done a great job, but I have learned a lot of things about like the importance of keeping myself calm, even when I get very upset with other people, because it's my job to like tone police myself, I guess. I don't love the term tone police.

AM: Um, you're talking about adjusting yourself so that you can be heard in those spaces.

JW: Yeah. And that's like a burden of emotional regulation that falls on the person with privilege. And I had just created a bunch of these resources and people were like, you're taking up too much space. It was both true. And I was also getting a lot of feedback from black friends who were like, I can't handle any more of my white coworkers asking me what to do.
Like please keep doing this. So I was very torn and ultimately I was like, there's enough resources. I don't need to be part of this conversation, but that was really like good to learn. And then I was also canceled another time while I was writing the book in February. Um, because during black history month, I gave my platform to.
For black people to take over for a week at a time. Um, and I paid them to do this. In theory. Cool. Um, but it was, it was pretty good for the first two weeks, but then a friend took over and posted a black person's work who wasn't him, wasn't him posted someone else's work who did not want to have their content shared to my largely white following.
And there were some comment issues happening. And I learned from that, that I have to think more about what kind of spaces are safe and. I should have been able to moderate comments or how to comment moderation, like plan in place. It was really hard for me to ultimately come to that conclusion because of the way the pylon occurred.
Like the person photo-shopped my DMS, like, you know, there was a lot, there's been a lot of that. And ultimately it's like, it's not about that. Like, and it takes a lot of space to sit with it and be like, it's not about that. It's actually like, there is something I can learn from.

AM: Thank you for trying thank you for occupying the gray space and then coming on a podcast and sharing about it and, and revealing that for every person like you. That's trying. There are so many people who are like, I am not sticking my neck out for this. There's so many people who are like, this is just too complicated. So for you to share your story and say, I'm still here, I'm still doing book press. I'm still getting to talk about all. And this is absolutely part of my past, and these are the ways I've been canceled.
Like that's what we need. We need so many more conversations with people saying I lived through it. This is what it felt like. This is why we have to be nicer to people. And then we also have to encourage social media companies to say, please make comment moderation, totally different, a very different product, because we have to we have to create safer spaces.

JW: Yeah. And I think the other thing that I really noticed throughout all these processes was like, it was largely CIS white women trying to show that they were standing up for something. And that's sort of exactly what I was trying to say in the how to talk to white people about racism.
I'm also like a CIS white person, like you are supposed to come get me and educate me and help me grow because that is the burden that falls on us as white people. Like that's what we have to do. And. 'cause it w it was so not interested in the end result of like, let's educate people. It was really disheartening for me because it was like, oh, people don't actually care. Like they just want to look good, you know? And they just want to show up in the comment section as like being on the right side here.

AM: Humans really struggle with like letting their vulnerable, I mean, yeah. We're these weird animals with these developed brains who are just afraid of everything.

JW: To be piled on really when you were trying to do the right thing really, really hurts. And it's just, it, the reason it bothers me the most is because it's just not effective. I like majored in communications. Like I am a writer, you know, like communication is like what I think about like, and for a very long time I was doing this work because I wanted people to, like, I wanted to communicate with people. I was like, oh, this is a marketing challenge in a lot of ways is like, connecting with the other like white people. Like it's a communications challenge. I mean, I see it that way because it's my skill. Uh, like, because communication, obviously it's

AM: You could do your like master's thesis on like how to, how to get white folks to pay attention to.

JW: I mean, many, many better theses have already been written on that. I've sort of like stepped away from doing that kind of work online because for one, it's not really like my place to be doing that work anymore. Um, and also I think I've learned everything I had to learn personally from doing it publicly.
So now I try to do it in a more personal way. Um, and just like, you know, have conversations with myself and my partner and people close to me. But I'm not like creating infographics for Instagram anymore. Like,

AM: no, but by sharing your personal story and having a book called greedy and sharing your story out loud, you are also doing a lot of good work out in the world, out in the world at the same time.
Uh, as we wrap up, is there anything, um, is there anything about the subject of, of this coming out of being Bi about what we talked about today that you want to like circle back to, or make sure that we know about you. Is there anything you're working on special that you want to shout out?

JW: Hm I'm like working on a novel, which I guess is what you're supposed to say when you haven't started the novel yet, but I'm working on a novel.
Um, I'm no longer going to be writing nonfiction because it's incredibly difficult to like get permission from everyone in your life. And also like to have the life experiences necessary.

AM: Like, no, come on. You're too funny.

JW: Well, I'm going to write it. I'm going to put the humor into fiction. So you're very sweet.

AM: Okay. Just do that thing where it's all true stories and then you just like call it a novel.

JW: Yeah. Oh no fiction. Yeah. Realistically I don't have much of an imagination, so that's what it's going to be. Yeah. I don't know. I guess if you're Bi and you're listening or if you're not sure if you're Bi, being not sure that you're Bi is kind of Bi culture.

AM: That's the takeaway, that's the full quote for the whole episode. It's like, if you don't know your Bi, that's Bi culture.

JW: It's true. And it doesn't go away. And I guess I would say like, to anyone struggling with where they fit into any type of box or binary. It is a great thing to be confused. And that's, that's kind of it.

AM: I love that, everyone listening, thank you for tuning in, be greedy, be confused and pick up a copy of greedy and follow Jen on Instagram at generous, but it's spelled J E N E R O U S.

JW: And um, and you can follow me on Twitter and Tik Tok too.

AM: Thank you so much, Jen, for doing this was a fabulous conversation

JW: I had a great time. Thank you Lady.

AM: Thank you Lady. You did a great job as the other co-host and letting us know that CIS white normativity is stale. Thanks everyone. Bye peepadoodles love you. Bye. Y'all keep the doodles. Oh, meaty and juicy and fun. Was that conversation with Jen Winston.
I am so grateful that she did the show. And again, I've said it a hundred times already. The book is so funny. Go grab a copy of greedy and digest it. It's just such a cool way to look at the world. I'm just so grateful that she's sharing her worldview and it sure does remind me of PostShame. And a way to just stay in the gray, take people as they are.
I'm so grateful for her in this conversation. Special. Thanks today to our social media manager, Jose Rodriguez, Solis he's @ cacidoe CAC IDOE on Instagram. Follow him. He does amazing makeup looks. And thank you so much to our sound editor and producer Zach Wachter. He also wrote our theme music, which I'm obsessed with if you loved the theme music, I love the theme music.
Please. If you're listening to this, you're probably already in a podcast app, like, subscribe, comment, do all the things that everyone says to do at the end of their podcasts, just do them. It helps other people find the show. I would really appreciate it and share it with one friend. You can follow me on all the socials @ Adam Mac attack, Instagram, Twitter, all the things and stay tuned.
There's more Post Shame. There's more Find Your Light. All of it coming. Thanks again. We'll see you next time. Bye.