Adam MacLean: Hey, Peepadoodles. Welcome to Find Your Light, a Post Shame podcast. I'm your host, Adam MacLean. Find Your Light is a show where we shine a light on shame and imagine a Post Shame world. In Act 1, we'll meet a Post Shame warrior. Someone who I think is up to something special and has a tool to teach us to help dismantle shame.
Then in Act Two, we'll play a little game of armchair quarterback by reexamining someone's public shaming through the lens of Post Shame. If they had had access to this tool before their downfall, do we think they could have come out a better leader and helped others dealing with something similar? We'll see. And now on with the show. Welcome to another episode of Find Your Light with Adam MacLean.
Today my guest is Erin Gibson, who I'm obsessed with. Erin, say hi.

Erin Gibson: Hi, hellotus

AM: Hellotus, Good Mornting

EG: Good Mornting.

AM: Okay, so you're a podcast veteran, so you know exactly how to do this. Uh, when did 'Throwing Shade' now 'Attitudes!' start like

EG: 2011

AM: More than a decade.

EG: Yeah.

AM: More than a decade. So you're the OG. You're the first podcaster, you are patient zero for podcasting.

EG: We were one of the first political podcasts on the scene. That wasn't two dudes, who two CIS dudes who were like, well, let's talk about the war of 1812 or whatever.

AM: Yeah. I can't think of anything less interesting than just an history podcast.

EG: I think if you think about the, the bay of pigs, it's interesting. Like we didn't, that's not what we do. we're like, how does stuff that's happening right now that they're gonna look back in the history books and be like, that was fucked up. How is that literally fucking our lives up right this very minute. And could we laugh at it and find some joy and some power in laughing at it so that we feel like we have a little bit bigger slice of say in, in the way that we are regulated and, and controlled.

AM: Well, I love 'Attitudes!'. I think you and Bryan, your co-host Bryan Safi, are just absolutely fabulous and continuing to offer people options. Like you offer a lot of action oriented pieces of advice.

EG: Because that's a thing, right? It's just like, you can really mire yourself down with the, tornado, the, of despair that is swirling around us.

AM: And the internet, making it so much easier to find every terrible thing that's happened every day .

EG: Mm-hmm , but we can't hide under the covers, honey, we gotta get out and we gotta punch some dicks. okay.

AM: You heard it here first, Find Your Light's tagline is, shine a light on shame and help people like embrace leadership, and it's like, no, we're actually here to punch some dicks.

EG: I don't look, I don't care why Beto did it. I just care that he did it yesterday that he got up and he said, you're the problem. And I'm glad somebody did it. You know, I'm glad he stood up and did that. Everyone's like, oh, he ran, he's running for governor, but it's like, that's what I want in a leader. I don't want someone who's gonna sit behind a podium and do thoughts and prayers, the old, the old one, two Texas Walts of, uh, the response to gun violence.
Anyway, be like Beto, even if you're even if your, your, uh, reasons are questionable or maybe they aren't, I don't know. I'm a pessimist.

AM: Well, I mean, I'm actually an optimist when I watch someone like Beto who consistently loses, just keep trying. And I actually like that he's looking for ways to continue to try to step up.

EG: I did think he did this classic straight white guy thing where he was like, oopsie, I lost my Senate race, so I'm gonna run for president and it's like, hold up there partner. Let's take a couple steps back.

AM: Can we offer this advice to Bill de Blasio as well? Someone who just keeps running for stuff and we're like, you can stop.

EG: How about some baby steps. You know what I mean? Like , let's do what all, all queer people and all, uh, cisgendered women have to do, which is. We gotta work real hard and we gotta work up at a molasses pace. And so like, I get that, you wanna like Superman into the stratosphere, but like there's some other steps you could take that are really bold moves.
I'm really glad he's running for governor. I thought it was what he should have done before he ran for president. I M H O. But I think at a certain point, you kind of, you get a platform. It's fame on some level, you know, it's like, Ooh, eyes are all eyes around me, Tupac

AM: Well, also, I mean, at that level, when you raise that much money, when you get national attention, you're surrounded by people who are very encouraging of you. And when you have a big grand vision, I think it totally makes sense that all these folks are like, all right, I'm ready. Let's run for President. And it turns out running for president, is this really great way to get a message out, like look at Andrew Yang. For all his foibles getting universal, basic income into the national conversation by running and refusing to answer any question with an answer other than well, if we had universal basic income and it's like, well, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I actually like that.

EG: I actually, I do too. Listen, I'm just, I just. If you are gonna go into public office, I think this, the I'm not a strategist, but as an outsider, looking in, if you really wanna go into public service, right. And you really wanna change people's lives, you gotta have a healthy ego, but you can't let that dictate things.
That's my opinion. I don't see any women going, I'm gonna run for local gov. Well, I guess Wendy Davis did it, but she was running, she didn't run for president.

AM: No she did not.

EG: Like Wendy Davis was like, oh, maybe I'll won't run for governor.

AM: Gosh, remember it seems like ancient history that Wendy Davis was wearing those sneakers talking all night long. She's she's a badass. Yeah, she's a badass. Thanks. Thanks for paving. The way she, she ran or she walked so we could run. I actually don't how, how does that expression go?

EG: She sprinted so we could jog.

AM: All right. So this was inside baseball. This absolutely was like Erin and Adam are political strategist. So we got that out of the way.

EG: Listen, this is just my opinion. This is I, I'm not an expert on this field, in this field at all. I, I see gender and I see how gender gives permission to certain people to just blow it out and how other people have to be like. I don't think I should do that. I think I need to do like a more purposeful, thoughtful Ascension, you know?

AM: Okay. Well, this is why you're a Post Shame warrior because part of the point of Post Shame is to point out the double standards of who gets shamed for what and why on the internet. So as a gender focused, Post Shame warrior, you wrote a badass book called Feminasty, which came out back in 2018, and we actually

EG: Seven decades ago.

AM: We actually did a little book tour together and I interviewed you a few times about the book.

EG: Excellently. It's a, it it's the first time I was like, Adam deserves a talk show.

AM: Aww. Yay. Thank you. So one of the things I loved about Feminasty was, A, it was extremely funny and there was just like so much information in it, but like me as a cisgender dude, I actually learned a lot of things about women reading this book, which is hysterical when you consider how many female friends I have, that I actually needed to read words on a page to be like, oh, this is how period tracking works. I had no idea.

EG: How many times are you at like, I don't know, drag brunch. And someone's like, so I was, uh, ignored at the doctors last week. Like that's not, it's not like exactly stuff we, we love to talk about in our off time.

AM: Oh no, that's what I want for my women. That's what I want for my women to interrupt the drag brunch to be like, do you know? I wasn't believed at the doctor. How else am I gonna learn?

EG: Did you know, my gynecologist told me he thought that, uh, women shouldn't be president until after menopause.

AM: Hmm. Can you, can you actually tell that story?

EG: I had a doctor and I talk about this in the book, but I had a gynecologist who was like wildly inappropriate. Like I wasn't assaulted, but he, he got a little too casual with me because he knew I was in, I was a comedy writer and am a comedy writer. And he got a little too casual with me when he removed an I U D that was so painful I couldn't sit down. And decided to do a puppet show when he removed it, where he voiced the I U D. I literally was like, I'm out. I'm out. And I, I was, it was covered in blood and I was horrified. And I, I was like, I don't understand in what con I don't. I see you once a year, dude.
I have seen you five times in my fucking life, and you're doing this. You're doing a clown show. To my pussy. Okay. So anyway, my friend was like, I'm so tired of hearing you talk about how much you hate this doctor. Like please go to my gyno, and I was like, okay, fine. So she's like, he's, he's queer. He's fantastic.
You know, you're gonna love him. So I go in, I go to this guy. Everything's going great. It's the year Hillary's running for president and he's like, I'm really excited about Hillary. And I was like, me too. I was like, of course there's problems. There's always problems. But you know, women always get scrutinized at a much higher level than, than men and, and I'm not gonna do that to Hillary.
I'm gonna. Or I'll do it to everybody the same, but there's problems, but also she's our best chance. And he casually just said like, you know, and it's great, cuz she's postmenopausal and you know, it's very difficult for women to be in a position of power premenopausal because your hormones are just constantly getting in the way of decision making.

AM: What was your response?

EG: I will tell you something. Do you know how many fucking non-hormonal straight cisgendered white dudes I've seen fail up? Who can't even complete a fucking sentance, who's talking like poetic language that makes them sound smart.

AM: Brett Kavanaugh is my favorite example of someone just being the most emotional person on the planet and not being criticized for it. It, it was wild.

EG: I was like, what do you mean? I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, you know, just like hormones can get in the way. And I go, I go, I'm a very successful writer. I write things that take extreme concentration and also need like through lines and arcs and, and, and depth.

AM: I don't even like you having to like, defend yourself, like you're just brilliant. So like full stop. I just, I can't.

EG: I was so shocked and he was like, I love women. And I was like, do you. You're using your, you're using your, your degree, your medical degree to say things that, that make you sound like an authority figure on whether or not women or, or anybody with estrogen can make good decisions or, like it, it, you know, what it comes back to, it's always this thing of like finger on the button, right? It's a cold war era fear. That if you are in a position of power and there's something wrong with your chemical makeup, that you are gonna somehow bring on a nuclear war. And I don't. And I do, I don't think if you haven't lived through the cold war, I think that's gone, the finger on the button fear.

AM: God.

EG: Anyway. Position of power is what he said though. I was like, fuck my drag. Huh?

AM: So Feminasty,. you know, is like a teaching tool, it's also very funny. Can you remind me? I remember years and years and years ago, you said you were working on a book about the ways that men and women are shamed differently. How they process shame differently. Was that the beginning of Feminasty. Is that kind of like how it got birthed, was being focused on how men and women process shame?

EG: I wish I could say yes. I wrote a sex ed book. For people who didn't get sex ed. That was the original. It was called D is for doggy style. I have a whole treatment for it. It was basically like sexual situations that I found myself in, where I was like, Ooh, I'm outta my depth.

AM: Do you own D is for doggy style.com?

EG: No. but should I register it right now?

AM: Yeah,

EG: I I'll go to name cheap, I don't give a fuck.

AM: No, she's she's actually good because this show is, is prerecorded. She's like we've got time. Do, do, do, do, do go. daddy.com do do D is for doggy style.com.

EG: Well, I don't go daddy. I name cheap. Cause go daddy. I'm like, is that guy, is he still a part of this?

AM: I don't know. I don't know. No founder, no founder should ever be CEO of the company. You heard it here first. I can't wait to get kicked out of PostShame.

EG: Men are too emotional and to reactive to be, to actually lead well, how do you like that?

AM: Listen, I am obsessed as, as a, as a male leader. I am surrounded by,

EG: I should, I should qualify six.

AM: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

EG: Straight, White.

AM: All my trusted advisors are women. All my trusted advisors are women. Okay. So you wrote D is for doggy style.

EG: Okay. So I wrote D is for doggy style, and then I, I got a book deal that my publisher was like, don't write this book.

AM: Why?

EG: Well, she was just concerned that there was like a flooded market at that time. And to her credit, she was like, you have this incredible platform that really no one else is talking in this way. I think you should do a book. That's more in line with what you're doing on the podcast. And I was. Oh, okay. I mean, I really didn't want to, because I get very burnt out on the subject matter. And so I really, I was really looking forward to just having like a fun rompy, medically accurate sex ed book for teens, basically.

AM: Oh, my gosh. And the goal for that is to have your book banned and then just shoot to number one on Amazon.

EG: That's what I wanted. I wanted to write the nastiest sex ed book, the fucking dirtiest, most honest sex ed book, and maybe I still will.

AM: I'm so embarrassed.

EG: And what I wanted to do was go to my high school and, and set up a booth right outside my high school. There's like a farm outside of my high school and I wanted to rent a P I, I don't know if that, and I would give the book away for free.

AM: I'm so here I'm so here for this gorilla marketing I'm so here for you fully getting arrested for being like within a hundred yards of a school and talking to minors about sex.

EG: Yes.

AM: It's fully, there's a lot of pots on the stove.

EG: Anyway, but she, she, but she was like, is there another? And I, so I was like, okay, what if this is a book for ding dongs, like me, who grew up in Texas and was told, that I needed to go to college to get my Ms degree, which is your Mrs degree. So that's not an education that's to get married.
And could I write something to open the eyes of people who maybe don't understand that they're being marginalized? Anyway, part of the book is, absolutely dealing with shame and dealing with the shame of not understanding this stuff, because there, it can feel very overwhelming to suddenly see the matrix.
Right. And I'm not talking, I'm not doing red pill Reddit. I'm saying like the actual movie. Okay. What the wachowski starship intended it to be. And for people to see all the ways, that the world is fucking with you and to not, and to like, of course at first you're like, oh shit, this is reality. And then to go, okay, here's the things you can do to protect yourself, to fight back, to educate other people and to see what's happening. Accept it. Feel empowered to fight it and move forward having more knowledge, because there is a lot of shame that comes with not understanding and especially in the south. Like, I mean, I can't even tell you. I remember I was working at the gap and

AM: Oh my gosh, we have that in common too?

EG: First of all working at the gap in Texas was like, essentially, like I was at Stonewall. That's a terrible thing to say.

AM: You through the first brick at Stonewall, from the gap in Texas.

EG: I would tell people I was working at the gap. They were like, oh, you're working for a San Francisco company. Like it was like fighting words. Yes.

AM: What?

EG: Yes. that's how fucking conservative Texas was in the nineties.

AM: Wow. Okay.

EG: The gap in Urban Outfitters, which jokes on all of us, those are like fucking capitalists to the max. But if you worked with those places, people were like, oh, you must be an outsider. I was like, yeah, I'm selling chinos for a living, flat front or pleaded. also, how do you feel about voting rights? I was going to junior college in Brenham. No college station. So I was working at the gap in Houston, so I was driving an hour and a half to work every shift. So what I would do is I would, I would try to do my weekend shift

AM: In this story though gas costs exactly $1

EG: 85 cents.

AM: Okay. That makes sense.

EG: Also there were no, there was really no jobs at college. There was a gap in college station, but here's the deal. The gap in college station was in a very sad mall, no windows, but the gap that I worked at was in Highland, the, the, it was called, I think it was called the Highland mall, but it was the, she, she start of malls without hallways. Do you know what I mean? Like. You park in front of the store, but everything's together and it's all outdoors.

AM: Like a high school on a TV show that growing up in Buffalo, I was like, these kids' lockers are outside. What?

EG: Yeah. So the, it was all that. So you had Banana Republic, you had Crate & Barrel, you had, you had gap, but everything had a storefront, its own storefront and it was gorgeous. And there was a PF Changs and everyone went, everyone went to fancy dinner at PF Changs in the 90s. So one of my coworkers, who's my like bestie, her, she was a social worker and she worked at the gap in the evenings. And one day she takes me out. She's like, so you gotta go see my hairdresser. And I was like, I can't afford this hairdresser.
And so the hairdresser, we started hanging out and she started giving me like amazing haircuts as a discount. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best. Like, this is what city life is all about. And one day my friend from the gap takes me to dinner. And she's like, can I take you to Chinese food? I have something to tell you.
And I was like, oh no, she's gonna tell me she doesn't wanna be friends with me anymore. So she takes me to dinner and, and by the way, my friend is from very small town in Louisiana. It has the most incredible accent. I just, I could just listen to her talk for 75 days. I I'm gonna tell you side note. She, it was so disgusting. She was a disgusting human being, but like so cute about it. I remember I'm gonna, I don't know if you, anybody can handle this. I hope you're not listening to this in the morning and please don't be eating when I'm about to tell this story. So she used to, um, we were the same size and so sometimes she would come over.
Or we'd try on each other's clothes but she didn't wear underwear. And so I remember one time she was trying on a pair of like pants of mine and then she goes, Hey, baby. Uh, just watch out. I left a little panty puddin' in there. But you could see like,

AM: I'm here. I am here for female empowerment in every regard and I'm just, I'm just,

EG: She was like the body's beautiful, but Hey, I might have, I might have left a little something in your pants.

AM: I? Okay, cool.

EG: Okay. She was, so what I'm gonna tell you next is, is going to ring so sad because that's somebody who talks like that all the time. She was 100% who she is. all the time. And so she takes me to dinner and she's like, so I have to tell you something really serious. And I was like, oh my God, she's dying. What's happening? Yeah. And she wai- she was like rambling. And she said, I'm, I'm a lesbian. And I'm in a relationship with our hairdresser.
And I. Screamed. I was like this incredible I'm so happy. Like this makes me cr- and she started crying. She's like, I thought you wouldn't be my friend anymore.

AM: Whoa.

EG: That's how fucking, that's the grip of, of, of shame. Especially in the nineties and the south, I think the, the way that everyone had seen the aids crisis, even though the aids crisis was very much alive and well in the south, in the eighties, it was hardcore. And I think there was still the stigma of like, oh, you're gonna. You there there's shame. There's religion. There's oh my God. You're gonna die. You're embarrassing me, all these things that were still very, very strong. And so I was like, absolutely not. I was like, I love you even more. This is incredible.
Like now you get to be a hundred percent who you are and like, you don't have to feel like you have to lie to me or like keep anything from me. I was so happy. And then two years later she disappeared and I found out, that her parents had taken her to a conversion clinic after they found out that she and, and I got an email from her apologizing to me for coming out.

AM: No, I hate that. Cannot believe this story ends here.

EG: I know.

AM: Well, we have to keep telling it.

EG: I was heartbroken and I wrote her back. I was like, if you ever, I didn't know how to approach it because she.

AM: No one could tell, that's tough.

EG: The, the shine had been dimed, you know? And I was like, if you ever need a place to stay, if you ever need someone to talk to, if you ever need anything, like I am here for you in whatever form, but I love you. And I love everything that you are. Whatever that is. And I never heard from her again.

AM: Well, I hope that that email offered her a little life raft and it's a shame. She didn't take you up on it. But we have to keep telling these stories and I'm sorry, it ends so sad, but we have to keep putting on blast. And that's why, uh, despite, uh, some huge problematic foibles by Paris Hilton, she is a person who is beating this drum. To bring awareness to these awful behavior modification, conversion therapy camps that none of them are accredited by anything other than angry, fake anti-gay or excuse me, formerly gay weirdos. It it's so awful. It, that that whole industry is so awful. They all have to be shut down. It is absolutely abuse.

EG: You know, to, to see somebody who was a social worker. So studied psychology in college and still could be so shamed by religion and family and, and Southern society. It's even more upsetting to see somebody who had a very vibrant life and a, and, and living in a big city and still couldn't escape, that kind of shame.
And the clutches of that kind of power, you know, feeling like family is more important and how, the way they feel about you and the shame that they feel has trumped, everything that you know, to be who you are. You're deferring to their shame. You know what I mean?

AM: Yeah. But the nexus of shame, the, the nucleus of shame is being kicked out of a group of being excluded. And if your family looms large in your life, as it should for everyone, I mean, it is who you grew up with and who's supposed to take care of you and be your support system. It's totally understandable to me that so many people are so terrified of getting kicked out of their tribe, that they will go back, however let's re- let's remember that you and I,

EG: My family didn't, my family was like, let us make it easy for you.

AM: Exactly. Some of us have been given the blessing of getting set free. You and I have had similar healing journeys. I hear one of these stories. It absolutely breaks my heart. And then it just kind of strengthens my resolve to live out and proud to signal everywhere I go every little bit that I can of being queer, being an ally, being an accomplice, standing up saying what's right. Everywhere I go. Your podcast is one of those things. I'm sure there are so many people who've written you messages saying coming out was easier because I had this resource and I had y'all's voices guiding me for so long.

EG: I'm always shocked when I get DMS from people who are like 19 saying, I listen to your show when I was in high school.

AM: Love that. I love that

EG: I have people writing me from my old high school, which is in the country. It's in the burbs of Houston, which is, you know, basically 45, 50 minutes from downtown is far. And, um, that makes me really happy. And then I got in, I got a DM from somebody saying that there there's like a new queer, like there's like the math club and then the swim club. And then they were like, we have a queer club and we talk about queer issues and we educate other students about what is, what what's the trans experience. And like, what's the. Gay and lesbian and bisexual experience. And I was like, this is happening at, my high school.

AM: I love that. And there are all these little baby homo sensuals and Feminastys all, all living out and proud.

EG: Makes me so happy.

AM: So Throwing Shade', the podcast became Attitudes!', the podcast. Was this due to any kind of cancellation? What was your journey of changing the name?

EG: We weren't necessarily canceled, but when we started the show, I know that we weren't as sensitive as we should have been to the origin of the, of the phrase. And, and, and I think there was a little bit of a, like a broad brushstroke with it, of like, oh, this is a queer term.

AM: Can you explain for folks who are, who are maybe late to the game, the origin of the phrase, throwing shade?

EG: Well, I mean, I heard at first in Paris Is Burning

AM: The fabulous Jenny Livingston documentary from the eighties

EG: Iconic, but let's speak honest. How many white Drag Queens were there in that movie.

AM: Yeah, that wasn't yeah, that was

EG: Zero. So there, there was, the sensitivity was, the sensitivity level was not there. The respect was not there. Mm. And we were struggling with it because now we've established ourselves under this name. You know, I had speaking of websites, I had registered throwing shade.com and we got some feedback from people who were like, I'm not sure this is their right term for you to use. And so we began the process. I think it was like 2018 to begin to work out all the things we needed to do on the back end to make the change. Wow. Because we had established ourselves so hard.

AM: That's badass that you, that you leaned into that.

EG: And then when Conan started using it, I was like, Ugh.

AM: It's been appropriated in so many if Pete Souza fabulous book, uh, about Obama and his photos of Obama released during the Trump era, that was called throwing shade. I mean, it it's, it's, it's grown.

EG: It's not our word. You know what I mean? I don't wanna put a hard line in the sand. That's like, you know, I can't say that word. I can't use it in the vernacular, but I think the gross part on our end was that we owned the domain. We were creating revenue off this name. You know, we were, I mean, not a lot, but it was a commercial endeavor. We were running commercials on this show. And when this podcast started getting really successful, we started touring with it.
That's when we were like this, this was a misstep, this was a big misstep. And. It took us a little bit to strategize how to do it in a way that felt thoughtful, felt like it was something that we had really worked hard to bring everybody on board with the whys and then what the new thing was. And honestly, it took us a really long time to find a new name.

AM: But I love it, 'Attitudes!' And it's so like eighties, the imagery is so vibrant and exciting and neon, and it really captures both y'all's personality. So I love it. I love where you landed.

EG: Thank you. But, you know, everybody. Okay. Not everybody white people. And this is the same with my book. Right. I, when I got out of high school, I didn't know shit. I remember I was like, I moved to Chicago to do second city and my roommate had a Spalding Gray book and she had Lolita and I was like, what the fuck are these? I started reading. I read all of her books cuz I didn't even know these things. I didn't, I mean, not that Spalding Gray as like, wokest dude in the world, but he definitely has a softer perspective about, about life and, and I'd never seen something or read something like that.
I was fascinated by it. I was fascinated with Lolita. I was like, why is this a classic, you know, and, and diving into that and having like my brain expanded. And so I think white people have a lot to reverse and teach themselves and there's not always good sources of information and it's not for us to burden other marginalized people to be like, why am I so dumb?
Can you teach me? why I'm a ding dong. And so it's, it's we, but we have to do the work. We have to do the work or we don't grow and we can't be good allies.

AM: What you're describing though, is getting taken out of your environment and being exposed to something new and learning something new. One of the points of Post Shame is conversations about coping with the internet, because the algorithms are constantly feeding us things that are related to things we already like. It is like increasing things, you are quote unquote, already interested in.

EG: Echo chambering yourself.

AM: Yeah. So. There aren't a lot of opportunities for people to have their minds expanded because they are fed a lot of what they already know or what reinforces things they already like, because that's what advertising is right. Is just trying to like triangulate. Are, are we getting the message to the right people? It has created a completely polarized society, a completely polarized politics. And because we have a mad man who I think wants to be president again, you know. Truly two different realities in our country with people who are like Trump won the election.
So your experience of getting to like move to a different city and learn new things. I hope we still have that. I mean, I don't know how valuable going away to college is from an educational and like, especially from the cost perspective, but getting out of your town and learning a new place and making new friends is like the most valuable thing to so many people. It is so valuable. And I want to encourage every young person still to do that. Maybe delete Instagram from ages 18 to 22. And go and learn stuff and pick up a different book and interrogate Lolita, read it like it, but then interrogate it.

EG: Yes. And I think that was kind of the beauty of the time I got to do it because the internet was, you went on there to like, see if your friends from high school were like, I don't know, doing a medical conference. I mean, it was just like, who cares? And I, I wanna say too, like, I don't necessarily think that it's, the right move for everyone to, to move away from home forever. I, what I love right now is seeing these small towns, seeing these places that are like mid-level cities totally change because the people who love those places and are saying, I don't accept. This kind of leadership, right. Are going, I will be the new leadership I will come in and I will, I will bring a softer,

AM: Not everyone has to move to New York and LA.

EG: Yes. And, and, and honestly the real change and the change that we need to see in this country needs to happen on a local level. It needs to be people who are like, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to run for office. I'm gonna run for school board. I'm gonna do whatever. I mean, this is a terrible example. It's just the easiest one I can think of. I remember going back to Hous- and I would go home every twice a year. This is gonna make me sound like an asshole. I was really into Acai bowls.

AM: Hey, I love all my food pre chewed. Okay. I love I'm a baby bird and I love any meal that's smoothie related. Okay.

EG: It was, it's a smoothie adjacent. It's a very delicious berry. I'm sure. The carbon footprint of getting this thing is really embarrassing.

AM: I can't manage all these things all at once. Okay. So you're eating the acai bowl in Houston.

EG: I, i, no, not in Houston in LA. Okay. I'm eating acai bowl I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go to New York. I'm gonna get an acai bowl everywhere I go. I could get an acai bowl, Chicago, San Francisco etc. So I'm going home twice a year. This is like 2000, not eight, nine or something. 2000. I don't know, 10, 11. There's an acai bowl place in Texas. And I was like, yes. Somebody was like, fuck you guys. We're bringing shit here. You're gonna, and that place blew up. And I was just like, I was so happy it listen. This is a really capitalist, um, boojie

AM: I love this example. No, this is the example. Change. Be the change you wanna see in the world. Open the Acai bowl store.

EG: What came next? Power yoga. What came next? Bike paths. Okay.

AM: Oh, okay. Now we're getting a little greener.

EG: Connecting the neighborhoods in downtown Houston to each other. What a great idea. And you know, who did it was someone I went to high school with. Develop started, started buying up land and then making sure that it was available for entry level food trucks so that people could start a small restaurant with a smaller barrier to entry.
I went to high school with that guy. And he was like, I wanna make Houston a great place for people, anybody to start a business and live and have a family. And I want it to feel like the multicultural place that it is. And I don't like that people are living in segregated neighborhoods. I don't like this and I'm gonna fucking fix it.
And he did. He started working on it really hard. I was so proud. I was so proud to have a drunk beer with that guy and a golf cart long ago.

AM: I love that. Well, uh,

EG: Miller Light bottles. Okay. I love that. That was, that was my, that was my drink of choice. Bottles, not cans. Cuz bottles are class. And you can use a straw.

AM: And look how far we've come.

EG: Hi Jeff. Anyway,

AM: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for Act Two
And we are back. With Act Two. So in Act Two of the show, we go back in time and we take a look at someone's public scandal or downfall, and we get in a time machine and we figure out if we could have gotten to them before the scandal broke, what advice we would've offered to them. And in preparation for this episode, we were wanting to focus on mental health in politics.
And we actually went so far back all the way to 1972

EG: Before we were born,

AM: Before we were born. And. Thomas Eagleton. I didn't even know the story. You're the one who brought this all. Yeah. To my eyeballs, Thomas Eagleton, he was the vice presidential nominee for McGovern in 1972. But talk about opposition research. Someone leaked that he had suffered from depression. And that he had undergone electro shock therapy, which by the way, has any era in history ever said that it worked. It just sounds so barbaric.

EG: It's hardcore. I do, actually, I will say I had done, I had said the same thing on our podcast and a couple people had written to me and said it was very helpful for me really. There's ways that to do it now. Okay. That, that aren't like straight up one flew over the Cuckoo's nest. You know.

AM: Okay, well, let's just say 1972 probably didn't have a nuanced view on electro shock.

EG: Well, uh, but why, why do you think that was?

AM: Well, yeah, it was operating in the shadows probably a little bit. It was very experimental, but

EG: No one would admit they were getting it.

AM: No one wanted to admit they were getting it. And this derailed the McGovern campaign. And he actually had to take Thomas Eagleton off the ticket.

EG: And, and it, and it lost him the elec-, he was winning over Nixon and it lost him the election.

AM: And quite dramatically, cuz I in researching this, I went back and looked at that 1972 electoral map and every single state is red. It is like the landslide victory for Nixon. And um, tell me if you can track this thought. I actually had a moment of being like, huh? At least we're not in that era. At least we're not in every single state going red.

EG: Well, I mean, let's talk about what else would've been true then. I wouldn't be able to have a credit card. I wouldn't be able to get a home loan without a male family member signing for me. How do you buy a car? How do you do anything?

AM: How do you do anything? How do you have any independence? So in, is this one of the moments where we say we have made progress? We are glad that some things have changed.

EG: Listen, we are living in dark times. That is for sure. And I'm not saying like it could be worse, but it was much different. The climate was much different and it was a situation where, I mean, if you look at even just the amount of people who are running businesses and the amount of just the, just, I mean, we are making such slow progress, but it, it is bending upward. It is bending upward. These are death rattles of death for people who are trying to change the way democracy works in this country so that they can rule by minority. Is not how most Americans feel. I really believe that.

AM: No, I, I, I agree. I don't believe it's how most American feel. So Richie Torres is a Congressman from New York. This happened very, very recently, but Elon Musk was responding to a Mark Andreesen tweet. And Elon Musk says, in my opinion, Wellbutrin is worse than Adderall and it's bad just running his mouth. Like Elon is not my guy. He's just so not my guy. Anyway, just running his mouth and richie Torres. Who's a Congressman from New York tweeted back at him.
I have taken Wellbutrin every day for more than a decade. I would not be alive today. Let alone a member of Congress were not for Wellbutrin, which saved my life. And it only has like, 300 likes or something like 300 re retweets. I find this tweet. So transgressive and so exciting. And in some ways, evidence that people are trying to be Post Shame about their mental health struggle.
But this is also in New York city where everyone's like, yeah, you're an Afro-Latino Congressman. You're openly gay. And you obviously now are coming out as a Wellbutrin , you know, taker

EG: Stan.

AM: Stan. Yeah. Wellbutrin stan. And I'm like, this is totally badass. So do you think that there's room for mental health conversations in politics now?

EG: Yes. And by the way, anybody who's saying that they haven't struggled with some sort of like, and I'm not saying everyone needs to be on some sort of like corrective or assistive medicine, but anybody who's like, I've never had a struggle with mental health. You're a fucking liar, you're a liar. You're a liar. That's it like also, there's not the perfect person and there's not the perfect politician. We have to stop creating these like impossible standards for people, especially on the, on the democratic side. They will just miss the mark. There's a very binary way that we look at people who are in positions of power and I'm not just say, I'm not saying that like, if someone's fucking up and making someone else's life hard, like we shouldn't get them the fuck out of power.
Yeah. But if somebody, and I'm not saying this about like, if you're stealing money from taxpayers, but if somebody, I don't know, has a, an affair. And they have a personal, traumatic situation going on. I'm not sure that is a reason to kick them out of office, considering the divorce rate in this country, considering how much we struggle with. I'm thinking of a particular politician, uh, specifically, but like, you know, being a woman mm-hmm and having that kind of scandal is much different than being a man and having that kind of scandal and. What kind of other struggles were happening behind the scenes when you have maybe a dynamic shift in gender roles that your spouse, I, I don't know. There's all kinds of other shit. And it's also like, is none of my goddamn business.

AM: Are you talking about Katy hill in California?

EG: Yeah.

AM: Yeah her scandal. It breaks my heart because it's essentially a story of revenge porn. It is a vindictive ex who's coming for her and that story was too much of a distraction for her. And she stepped down because she said, I can't deal with all this all at once for folks who aren't totally up to date on that scandal. One of her relationships has she come out as a proud bisexual. One of the relationships was with a woman who also happened to be a staffer. So immediately ethics, uh, investigation happens and she's like, I gotta go.
It sounds like everyone was a consenting adult and. You shouldn't sleep with your subordinates, but that's kind of beside the point in this story, like the whole thing was released because of her revenge porn. And it's just so ugly. It's just so ugly. I wish Katie Hill could be post shame about her relationships, but she really was in the middle of it.

EG: Listen, I have a friend who is going through a thing with an ex. It's getting very ugly on his behalf. He's butt hurt and he's doing crazy shit to her. When you have that kind of psychological turmoil happening where like, you don't even know if it's over, right? You, you, or you can't even get this person to, to sign divorce papers.
They're saying lies. They're trying to like sell your name and they're doing all this stuff in the background. It's like, it's really hard to have a job. It's really hard to do other stuff for, it's hard to be a leader. It's hard to do all those things because you're constantly on the defensive with this person who is so upset.
That you would reject them. Right. That they're, they're now like I'm gonna make you pay and they do. And they do had it maybe not been as bad. She might have been able to stay in office and muster the energy she needs to like. Not smooth it over, but like deal with it, head on and talk about the complicated facts of it.
But the fact of the matter is she also has this other person, like straight up emotionally terrorizing her. And like on the internet too.

AM: It's oh, the internet it's upsetting the, the worst and most confusing part of it.

EG: And by the way, That shouldn't be legal to do. Revenge porn, I believe in California is illegal.

AM: It is. However, the only mechanism you have to deal with it is that you have to have it had come out and then Sue the person. There are no like

EG: Exhausting.

AM: It's so exhausting. And then you have to spend,

EG: Can you imagine if someone robbed your house and then you were like, okay, now I have to sue them in order to have like my day in court.

AM: Yeah. If the secret ingredient of Post Shame is leadership. Our advice to Katie Hill. Let's go back in time to Katie Hill. You know, she's in the midst of like this like awful, awful, awful thing. My hope for her would be that she would say, okay, this is so complicated. This is so tough. I know there are other people going through something similar.
It's going to be hard. It's going to be painful. It's going to be complicated, but I have to come out about the reality of the situation so that I can help other people dealing with something similar, bring awareness to this conversation and admit that I'm in the midst of it. Erin, what you said, it's hard to have a job when you're going through that stuff. I want to hear. A leader. I wanna hear someone in power say it's really hard for me to be at work right now. Cuz I have all this stuff happening at home. And how often do we know that we have coworkers who are going through stuff?

EG: Well, I have a new rule at my, at my, at my show.

AM: Erin's standing up, she's grabbing a prop.

EG: I'm running a TV show right now.

AM: Oh, oh you're holding up a card that says crying is cool.

EG: So when people are upset or like the weight of the world is crushing down on them and I'm on a zoom call and they get, they start crying. We hold space for them. And by the way, it has hap we started our show two days after the fucking insurrection

AM: And for, for those who maybe didn't listen to the intro. Erin is the show runner for Warner brothers, reboot of Tiny Tunes.

EG: So here's the deal I'm writing the most ridiculous kind of comedy silly, free, joyful comedy

AM: On January 8th.

EG: For a four quadrant show, which if you don't understand on January 8th.

AM: What are the four quadrants? Are they like emotional intelligence? Are they the four quadrants of emotional intelligence?

EG: No, it's like everyone in the family can watch. So we have, oh, callback jokes for adults. And then we have like, kind of like high energy silly jokes for, for kiddos, the younger people watching the show.

AM: I love that.

EG: So we have had deaths. Not of people, people who've had very close family members die, including myself. Um, we have had insurrections, we have a very diverse show. So name some shit that has happened in the government. Somebody in our show is directly affected by that, you know, like all the hateful stuff and my co EP and I just decided to just make it. You do not need to be embarrassed. You do not need to feel. Upset, I shared my situation with my dad. So everyone knew that it was okay to like, talk about real stuff going on in your life. And if you needed a mental break, we are here to make room for that.

AM: That's gorg.

EG: It is hard to push through your everyday job when you feel like the government and this and society and the world around you doesn't care. and I think Katie probably probably part of the problem was the fact of the, the, the internet being involved and just the vitriol that comes out in that. But I, but I, but I agree. It's like, should she have to listen to all that in order to get through to the people who would be like listening, this happened, I'm struggling with it is obviously very disruptive to my personal life and, you know, there was a better way to handle it.
And I didn't do that. I think apologizing to me feels different than shame. You know, like saying I'm really sorry. I wish I had handled it differently, but I didn't. And here we are, and I'm gonna try to fix it the best I can, be patient with me.

AM: Yeah. One of the key tenants of a meaningful apology is saying, what you commit to going forward because that's all we can do. We can say, I'm sorry. And then these are the things you can count on me for. And the point of that is so people can hold you accountable. When two weeks later you do the same nonsense and someone says, you just like recommitted, you know, which is why apologies that are just deny, deny, deny, deny are so unsatisfying. They are,

EG: Which I call, I call them Napologies.

AM: Which are not apologies. I love that. Napologies are

EG: I'm sorry. You were upset. However,

AM: yeah. I love an apology that includes, and this is what you can count on.

EG: But that's shame speaking, right? That's shame. I feel like if you can sit with your own actions and you can forgive yourself for being a human being who doesn't have all the answers and sometimes will stumble. That's the key to living a very good existence.

AM: So if your office cue card is crying is cool. Mine is forgive yourself for not being perfect. Like that is what it would be fairly disruptive if I started every meeting with that, but I kind of want to think it all day every day, forgive yourself for not being perfect. You're not gonna be the perfect leader. You're not gonna be the perfect coworker. You're not gonna be the perfect partner. Just forgive yourself and then keep trying. Keep trying.

EG: I also have this on the show and I started using it in real life, but people apologizing for stuff and I was like, everyone's doing their best. Everybody's doing their best. And I bought a necklace from, from a local, um, jewelry maker. And I, I wrote her friend. I was like, Hey, can I ever email my necklace broke? I just wanna see if she can like, fix it real fast. She was like, oh my God, that's so crazy. Like, her necklaces never break. And I was like, Everyone's doing their best, including this necklace. We are all doing our fucking best. Like we are going to fall short. It is an impossible standard, I think, especially for people who are high achievers, who grew up being told that they, they, they wouldn't be able to accomplish stuff because of their gender or race or orientation. It's especially important that we remind ourselves to take a fucking break unless we burn ourselves out, trying to prove to everybody around us that we, that we're worth something.

AM: I'm here, I'm here for this snaps for this. So thank you to that necklace for doing its best. Erin, thank you for doing your best. Thank you to zoom and microphones and headphones and producers, and just a gorgeous light, uh, for all doing their job. Erin, that's so lovely to spend time with you. I love the way that you are a Post Shame warrior, and I'm just so happy that you're part of this journey. Thank you for your wisdom and insights.

EG: Me too. Thanks for bringing me along. I have to say, you know, can I give you a kudos? Oh, and I'm gonna tell people. Sure. So one time I was at Adam's house, we were watching drag race as we do, uh, eating cheese, as we do, , uh, drinking a, a light, a light wine. And, um, I don't remember who it was, but somebody was wear one of the, one of the PA one of the panelists was wearing a bra with a jacket.
And I was like, oh, come on. And you were like, no, . She could wear whatever she wants. Her body is beautiful. And I, I was like, you're right. There's such a fucking asshole inside of me that was raised in this like competitive, shitty nature. And sometimes it comes out and I don't even question it. And I'm so happy that you were there.
I remember I, I think about this all the time. I remember that you were there and you were like, We don't do that, you know? And you just like,

AM: No, but I don't drink anymore. But when I was drinking, I still like, even like blitz face drunk. I was like, no, everyone can wear anything that you want

EG: You were fucking right. And I was, I was being shitty and you, and so to, to me, part of the Post Shame journey is making sure they have people around you. Who also keep you accountable because sometimes you forget and you go onto autopilot. And then that shitty person who graduated high school in Cypress, Texas comes out and you're like, oh God, I guess I smoke, you know, menthols again and, and drink beer out of koozie and, um, tell other women that, um, they ain't shit.

AM: Well, uh, steps two and three of the PostShame process. Involve investigating and confiding. And that's what having a group of trusted advisors is all about. And I use that term. That's kind of like a, you know, political term, like these trusted advisors, but you just gotta cultivate folks in your life that you can admit things to so that you can actually get like their feedback. You know, I was lucky enough in one of the past episodes to tell a story where. I thought maybe I had bullied someone in the past and I took that information to my trusted advisors who happen to all be women and, you know, I said, you know, what do you think of this story? And they were like, mm, I don't know.
It rings true, but you know, is it that bad? Give the person a call and it all got sorted and it all made sense, but going through the process of Post Shame, it, it it's essential to share with others and to have a community of people who. Get it. And so my wish for everyone is to just be reminded, look for your tribe. Look for those people that you can confide that stuff in. And I am so grateful. I have you as one of those people, and I hope you check me one day when I shame someone for some outfit and you go, Adam,

EG: Give me a reason

AM: And you go, Adam, no bra and a jacket is totally acceptable. And also something Fantasia Thunder Pussy would wear. So, you know, that's probably,

EG: I I'm gonna tell you something. I think. I like to surround my people who surround myself by people who are smarter than me and know more. And so I just want you to know that's where you fall in. Um, I like to be challenged and I wanna constantly be better and, uh, not, not in the fucking Trump way, not in the ding dong Trump way. I'm not being better in that way. I'm just saying I want to continue to grow, continue to get smarter. And I think surrounding myself with people who know more, it's exciting. And I thank you for being one of those people.

AM: You're so welcome. And one more.

EG: Thank you for being so smart.

AM: One more. One up one up one up is, Hey everyone read Feminasty, get a little smarter. If you're a dude listening to this podcast and you wanna get some knowledge and laugh along the way, Feminasty is where it's at. Available wherever books are sold.

EG: Guess who called me to tell me that he loved my book and that he realized that he might have been guilty of not listening to his female patients, not my gynecologist. My, my general practitioner, who, who is rad

AM: I love,

EG: who I love. And he called me, he goes, can I have a copy of your book? I was like, I don't think you're gonna like it. He's like, just give it to me. So I gave it to him and he called me and we had an hour long conversation and he was like, let me just run some scenarios by you. He's like, I I'm seeing the world very differently now.

AM: Wow.

EG: Yeah. Unfortunately he then retired because he was tired of dealing with Southern California, uh, narcissism.

AM: It's never too late to like have the away.

EG: I'm trying to get him to come to Santa Fe. I'm like, come fill a gap here, baby.

AM: I love that, Erin I love you so much. Thank you so much for doing this.

EG: Thank you for having me

AM: Love you.

EG: Love you too.

AM: Peepadoodles, isn't Erin. The absolute best she's on all platforms at Gibblertron, G I B B L E R T R O N. And her podcast cohosted with Bryan Safi is everywhere at 'Attitudes!', pod.
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Until next time, no matter how you're feeling down, up or sideways, just look for some light turn towards the light and feel it on your face.
Close your eyes and just Find Your Light. Get it, get it. Get it. We'll see you next time for more gorgeous Post Shame warrior gorgeousness. Love you all. Bye.