Adam MacLean: Hey, Peepadoodles. Welcome to Find Your Light, a Post Shame podcast. I'm your host, Adam MacLean. Find Your Light is a show where we shine a light on shame and imagine a Post Shame world. In act one we'll meet a Post Shame warrior. Someone who I think is up to something special and has a tool to teach us to help dismantle shame.
Then in act two will play a little game of armchair quarterback by reexamining someone's public shaming through the lens of Post Shame. If they had had access to this tool before their downfall. Do we think they could have come out a better leader and helped others dealing with something similar? We'll see.
And now on with the show. Peepadoodles, welcome back for another episode of Find Your Light. Today my guest is David Ambrose, who has a new book coming out called A Place Called Home. And because I want to dig in on his story of experiencing homelessness and being in foster care, I am going to just do this as a big act one.
We're gonna skip act two today. We're not gonna dig in on any public people. We're just gonna focus here on his story. I introduce him at the top of the episode. So without further ado on
with the show, And we are here with David Ambrose for another episode of Find Your Light a Post Shame podcast.
You are a national child welfare advocate and you spent a decade homeless and then years in foster care. You were recognized by president Obama as an American champion of change. And you were the head of corporate social responsibility at Walt Disney television, president of the Los Angeles city planning commission, and a California Child Welfare Commissioner.
You're now at Amazon? What's your role at Amazon?

David Ambrose: Uh, I lead community engagement for the west.

AM: And did you like lowkey go to law school, like in, in this whole long story of yours?

DA: Yeah, I was drunk. It was a dare. I thought it'd be fun, a hundred and something thousand dollars later on AMEX and Visa and every credit card they'd give me,

AM: I didn't know you could put tuition on a credit card.

DA: Neither did I.

AM: So in act one of this show, we shine a light on shame and highlight a Post Shame warrior, someone who I think has a tool to help dismantle shame. And this bio, you know, I grabbed from other places where you're written about on the internet. How do you feel about, I mean, Post Shame is about this action of looking in your past to find something, imagining your future, and then taking action in the present.
But so many times when you're introduced your past is kind of handed to you and you're described as this person who spent a decade homeless. And then years in foster care. What's that like, and, and you're about to do a book tour. So like, what's it like having your past, put into your bio like that every time?

DA: I think we all collectively walk around and people see us and immediately use shortcuts, which is human nature. To decide how they're going to interpret everything we say, who we are, how valuable we are. And, uh, I'll give you a story that answers your question.

AM: That docking and positioning. Like when someone ask, what do you do? Yeah. And I refuse to answer.

DA: Yeah. It's like, how, how big is your, bank account. So, uh,

AM: so to speak,

DA: uh, pivot there. So planning commissioner is this really interesting position that is impossible and insane, and there's no training. And they're like, okay, you're in charge of planning and land use for Los Angeles. And there's a department and I have colleagues.

AM: But that's so chic. That is just so chic that like you were asked by Governor Garcetti to take on that position because of your ideals.

DA: Yeah.

AM: That's a badass on his part, but then it's, I love that you said no training because you just show up at these meetings and you're like, housing's a human right. So we'll just figure it out. I guess.

DA: That's exactly what I say. This one time I had to come out. And I think we, as people consistently have to keep coming out, not just as gay, but as many things. So I was running on planning commission. There was a project where homeless people, particular women and children would have shelters built. And this group came out to protest against it.
And as the president of planning commission at the time, my job was to facilitate public input. And so people come up and talk and I remember this one person got up and he basically said that the women should have had abortions if they couldn't have taken care of their kids and I call the point of order.
So I never interrupt people unlike today, where I'll interrupt you a lot. And I decided to come out as a formerly homeless person, really for the publicly, for the very first time. and I said, you know, if you're trying to convince me to vote against a project by telling me my mom should have aborted me and my brother and my sister, cuz that's, who's sitting on this planning commission then you really need to reassess how to convince me.
But of course it's your time say anything you want? And he just looked at me and the room was like, what have you? And then the front row, there was these women who would've been served by the shelter. They were there to testify. And I looked at them and I'm like, I am you, you are me. And they saw me cuz I came out to them.
So I think people walk around with our assumptions and presumptions and misconceptions about who we are individually, especially I think at this moment as a cisgendered white male, my story is not typical. I would say, and I have to come out about it pretty consistently.

AM: So you do not include in that description, anything about being a abuse victim or abuse survivor. I look at your experience of homelessness because while you were a minor, it's like not your choice. So I like assign at this victimhood where I'm like, well, David had no choice. Like, you know, if he's a child in this story. So do you feel like folks who have experienced abuse should be coming out like that as well?

DA: In the moment we're in where the right of women to control their body is days away from probably being removed or has been removed by the time this airs. I think part of what we all need to collectively do as oppressed individuals, and that are part of groups, like women, is we all need to come out. So if you've had an abortion and you can let people know if you've been the victim of something, come out. Part of the reason I wrote the book is cuz I realized how much shame I still had about all the things done to me. All the experience I had to do what it's like to bathe in a bathroom. What it's like to be harassed by a mom at a, public reading, at a, what do you call those

AM: Libraries?

DA: Story Time no, this woman came up to me. We were sitting there and this, I was

AM: this wasn't drag queen story.

DA: Honestly, God, I wish, uh, they were reading. I was hoping it would be James in the giant peach cuz when you, I was homeless and I would stay at libraries. They would be story times. And I remember they started James at the giant peach at one of these libraries and I was like chef kiss, but you never finish the book cuz it's only a story time.
It's not the story book. And so I go to the next one and this one time this woman comes up to me and she stands over me as the kids are gathered in front of the librarian and she's like, you're disgusting and get away from my son and to her credit, I was disgusting. I'm sure I had lice, head to toe filthy and I probably hadn't showered in at least a year.
You wouldn't wanna sit your kid next to me, but she should have handled it differently, but the librarian came up and, and smoothed out the situation. But this is not in the book. That story is, but this is what happened after that is I was so ashamed. I went into the bathroom and I closed the door and I looked in the mirror and I realized how disgusting I looked, and felt, and smelt.
Cause you, you stopped realizing that when you're homeless, like, you don't smell yourself after a while. And I was so ashamed that I took this paper towel and I rubbed myself raw and just like one mark down my face in my body. And you saw the skin underneath and I'm like, wow, I'm, I'm filthy. And I was so ashamed about that.
So in telling these stories in this book about all the things that I experienced, part of it was releasing that baggage and be like, I'm not a collection of things that happened to me. They no longer have the power and authority to dictate my decisions and I don't really care what you think.

AM: I'm so surprised to hear you say that you wrote the book because you realized you still had so much shame. So many people think that their creative endeavors can only begin after it's all fixed after it's all healed as a person who, I mean, this podcast even is a creative endeavor for myself to think like, you gotta get all your ducks in a row before you do a thing.

DA: Sure.

AM: And it's like, Still be ashamed. Write the book.
Yeah. Still be figuring out what Post Shame is and do your best and start a podcast. Absolutely. So I love that. You're, you're forthcoming about that.

DA: Absolutely. This is one of my first creative endeavors and my therapist has really good analogy. He said, this is when I was in my mid late thirties. When I started realizing that I had a lot of stuff to deal with. And my therapist said you've taken all these traumatic things that get thrown at you throughout your whole life. And you put 'em on a shelf and you neatly label them. And you can see them because it's a clear box and you know where they are, you don't deny them, but you don't experience them. And at 37 ish, he goes, your shelf broke.
Oh. And two things are problematic with that. Your stuff has come off the shelf and you can no longer deal with the world however, you're used to, by putting things on the shelf. So your coping mechanism is gone. And he said, not only, you're gonna have to figure out how to deal with this spilled box and no longer being able to put stuff up there.
And I was like, oh crap. Visual, very powerful. And it was so true that I realized that I still, these things that have been done to me so violent are so neglectful, still have power. And I'm like, screw that. I mean, coming back to the city every time I come back here, I, I thought of a photo book

AM: back to New York city.

DA: Yeah.

AM: Cause you're, you're an Angelino now.

DA: I am an, absolutely. I love Los Angeles. I'm an Angelino Yorker. um, the coming back though, I thought about doing a photo book called places I slept and just taking a picture of all the places in this city.

AM: Girl, I'm here for that project, but I'm also like, so moved by how that, that I was going to ask you. That's one of my questions is what's it like coming back to New York? Uh, when I go back to Buffalo, where I grew up or suburb of Buffalo, Hamburg new. I've also been in tons of therapy and, and, you know, been through some shit. And I'm now on the other side of it, when I go back to Hamburg, I'm a mess. I'm just sloppy and upset at everything.
I've heard you talk about, you know, grand central come to my house. Like you can give an amazing tour of grand central because you've quote unquote lived there. Mm-hmm , you know, for a little while, what's it like for you coming back to New York and like seeing the scene of the crime as it were.

DA: So let me say something that I sometimes get in trouble for. We have the best foster care system in human history. Right now we are the most fair and equitable society we've ever been. Right now. We are the most safe we've ever been right now. And those are scary things to think. Cuz when I think about my child that I'm like, oh gosh, that was all messed up. And yada, yada, I think if we consistently start from a place of like the shit is on fire, we don't acknowledge the progress that's been made.
So when I come back to the city and I look around and I think, huh, I also look around and I see a place that's. Improved and better and is constantly reinventing itself. I love coming back here. It does something to my soul. That no other place on earth does, uh, the air, the people, everything. I start the book with the chapter about a night that my family almost died, was very young. And I used to pass the time when we were young, by looking at the sidewalks as we walked Manhattan. And over the last couple days that I've been here, I've just, I always look down at the sidewalks. I'm always so curious. And I don't know if most new Yorkers do. They're kinda like, what did I step in? But if you look at the sidewalks, there's a million varieties of Manhattan.
I don't know who's in charge of sidewalks, but there is no consistency. There is no consistency. And I love that. Cuz when I was growing up I'd be like, oh look, that's shiny like a diamond that was Micah or these big slabs from the 18 hundreds or whatever. And it's so special this place, and it's such a silly detail, but I remember it helped me persevere that diversity in thinking about something other than what I was experiencing at that moment.
I love this city. Every time I come home, I'm reminded of that.

AM: Wow. I want to go back to this. Gorgeous metaphor that you have with your therapist around the shelf. And I really like the clear boxes part you can see it. It's labeled, you know, where it is, but it's not really being experienced.
Mm-hmm and then it all fell down off the shelf. You have been in foster care you're how do we refer to it? A person who's experienced foster care or a foster care kid? Like what do we call it?

DA: So funny the language today, like people like people experiencing being unhoused. I'm like, I'm sorry, what did you just say? We're homeless. We are the homeless. I'm just like, let's call it. What is renaming? Something doesn't solve the problem. And so I was homeless. I was a foster kid and now my favorite thing is the child welfare, industrial complex calls, foster parents. They call them resource parents, this naming thing, words matter, but sometimes they think we get carried away with ourselves.

AM: And do you think sometimes it helps people feel like they're taking an action by like learning the new verbiage?

DA: I think it does. I also think it can help organize stuff behind it, which is important

AM: person experiencing homelessness. I feel is a really helpful way to decouple. Yeah. The thing from the person, which is just how I, I don't know. I, I have not experienced homelessness, but I, I now like that when I see a person. Living outside mm-hmm I'm like, it's not that they're homeless. Yeah. They are not homeless. They just are currently unhoused.

DA: I get that. I just think most people aren't that sophisticated in terms of how they interpret that interaction and they just think homeless.
And I think it's what I've always been about with my social justice work is you can either be knocked over by the wave or get on a damn surfboard and ride it. There are certain things that are cultural and language laws of physics. Stop renaming them. They're homeless. Let's stop debating that. Why don't we figure out how to make them less homeless and even in LA, you know, and being part of that conversation. Do you know what the largest group of homeless is in most cities in America?

AM: I mean, I wanna make guesses because I know queer kids are like disproportionately affected by,

DA: Correct. But the largest they're disre, you're right. They're overrepresented. The largest group are former foster kids. And we don't talk about that. The second largest group, as I understand it is rapid rehousing people who were one paycheck away, right. And live in their car, or right. So we're talking about the two largest groups making up close to a third to half.
Depends where you are. are not the people that are in our face that are annoying us collectively. I use that in quotes. You can't see on the radio,

AM: We're on YouTube.

DA: Oh shit. what angle. Um,

AM: You look great.

DA: Lies and charity. So, um, I think if we have a more sophisticated conversation about the homeless, we realize that it's not some sort of weird amorphous thing and they're subpopulations, which is what I think you're saying. But we don't get there. If the first thing we make people do is do mental gymnastics, not to use the natural language of the homeless.

AM: You heard it here first, David Ambrose doesn't care what you call it, as long as you're willing to be in the conversation

DA: And fix it!

AM: And fix it. So. You were a foster kid,

DA: An alum I call it.

AM: An alum. And then you went on to yourself, be a foster parent. I'm wondering because you brought up 37 as this like, um, inflection point when the stuff fell off the shelf. You have a foster son and,

DA: Who you met.

AM: Who I met last night. And. Both of y'all briming with joy over each other was really special to watch. And last night you were honored by Casa NYC. Mm-hmm as one of their heroes. And I had invited you on the podcast before I saw all that honoring happen. But your ability to speak about this experience and activate people is very special. So I'm extra excited to put you on blast. So your son and you had a breakup at one point where he, how would you describe it? He didn't, he no longer wanted to be your foster kid?

DA: Uh, children they'll break your heart.

AM: Did that happen at 37 is what I'm saying is that when everything fell off the shelf,

DA: The shelf slowly broke slowly. I mean then all at once. So

AM: Like with all of us.

DA: Yeah. My son was the crack of thunder where everything just broke uh, Ja um, I've always had this philosophy that the world owes you nothing and will pay you accordingly.
And what I never gave his space for my foster son who had a very, I let him tell his story one day, but had a very challenging upbringing himself and included all the things that one might imagine. And I never gave him the space to be weak and vulnerable because I never showed him that in myself, vulnerability is a superpower.
And what I showed him was not that which was don't cry. No one cares. Don't talk about what happened to you move forward. And in some senses, it worked, you know, my son is a, uh, graduate of Berkeley and he's now at, uh, uh, Cornell and he's doing great things.

AM: Well, yeah, his foster dad went, where did, to UCLA for law school, all y'all overachievers.

DA: Yeah. but, but you know, what will cost and, um, Might have had happened anyway, might have been more full, emotional, happy person had I had this revelation earlier and my son taught me that. He needed me to create a space where he could be mournful about what had happened in his life. And I. I should have relentlessly loved him and created that space.
And I didn't cuz I was ashamed and I still had problems with that experience. And honestly, a lot of the things in my book are things that I've never told anyone because I'm so mortified. I robbed homes. I stole from cars. I had things happen to me by adults that would just make your skin crawl. And I never gave my son that space to tell me his story.
As I did with my silence. I told him no one cares. I cared and I should have told him that by telling him my story and not letting it control me.

AM: I'm gonna hold a lot of space for that. I'm gonna be taking that with me.

DA: I'm gonna sip this, not tequila.

AM: I'm just so struck by how false it is that your guiding principle for so much of your life was that no one cares because you obviously cared so hard. And you put yourself on the other side of a system to find a foster son and help take care of him.
You did care and your growing success over your whole life chosen family, even, you know, is from all these folks who do care. So. I applaud you for being on the other side of it, but

DA: Do you know why I came on today?

AM: Why'd you come on.

DA: I love you. uh,

AM: great. The podcast is done. Thanks for the compliment.

DA: I remember we chatted whatever it was, pre COVID or early COVID and shame is like this pernicious cancerous seed. And even if I showed through my actions that I cared, it negated part of it that he needed, which was the emotion. Demonstration of empathy. I couldn't be empathetic as much as I needed to be, cuz this small little thing had metastasized and taken over my ability to be vulnerable.

AM: Right.

DA: And it didn't mean my actions didn't show that I wanted to help this young person. But I remember I spoke at a conference once and this foster kid stood up and was like, what if you don't see a light at the end of the tunnel? I think I said some asshole comment. I think I said, I think I said something like buy a fucking flashlight and I'm not proud of that, but it's how I felt at the time.

AM: It's how you felt at the time.

DA: And I don't believe it's either, or I think there's a beautiful somewhere in between and the somewhere in between moves, but people do care. People do care. I was at Casa last night, as you talked. There's a waiting list for people to help foster kids in the system. I'm like,

AM: that's amazing.

DA: You saw their faces that they were taking the oath to do the work to do.

AM: But that's when, I mean, there were many times to cry during this like very warm, glorious gala last night. I want to actually stay there. That's a whole,

DA: The Clown!

AM: We're cutting that part out. There was also a clown performance last night, which was very, very entertaining, but also very confronting for those of us who don't love clowns.
Anyway. So last. I was so struck. There are volunteers that work with Casa NYC. They're trained by staff to be advocates and they only get one foster kid that they advocate for and check in with. So, you know, there's foster parent, there's a foster kid, but then there's this Casa advocate as well. And when they complete their training, they take an oath.
What is it about words, about language seeing this zoom screen montage that they put together of all these people holding up their right hand. And saying I pledge. You know, I declare what is it about that that gets my heart. Just swelled overcome. And that's what made me cry is yeah, they are declaring, I am here to help these kids and it just makes me weep. Ugh.

DA: Well, it's what I said a moment ago, which is people do care. And the sad reality is, is that there's probably 80% of us more that do than don't. Right. But the part that we glorify in our culture is the folks that don't seem to the folks that are like, screw it. The folks that. do terrible things and we just see them endlessly. But in reality, there's much more people out there that want to do something, make the world a better place. And, uh, not to quote Nixon, but to quote Nixon, I think we're the silent majority and what those people do by declaring being less silent,

AM: Silent majority has been co-opted like 19 different times an hour lifetime. I don't know how to.

DA: I think Nixon has a Renaissance. I think, you know, EPA. No. Put it back in the box. Yay. He wanted national healthcare. Look, I am not blind to his foils, but listen, maybe he's someone who should be Post Shame. I don't know.

AM: oh, president Nixon. Okay. Well, thank you for shining a light on that, that there are so many more people that care. And if we could get Casa the appropriate funding that it needs, they could hire more staff to train more volunteers. Yeah. And again, knowing that there's a waiting list of those volunteers is just so encouraging to me. So something you also brought up last night at this gala, it has to do with president Obama.
So you're friends with Obama, cuz he's like, he's like talk to you. Right. So, so let's just keep, let, yeah. You're not allowed to respond, so your bestie Obama knew. What was one of the policy changes he made around gay kids and foster care?

DA: I think as a queer community, we saw president Obama go on his evolution around us as a community. I think president Obama and the administration sometimes are more of a reflection of society than we imagine. I wish it weren't the case, but sometimes that's the truth. And I remember when growing up in foster care that they quickly diagnosed me as gay.

AM: Do you say that jokingly because I, you I've heard you say this before.

DA: They technically diagnosed me as what they at the time. And it's still used today is called gender identification disorder. And it would be typically referred to kind of as gender dysmorphia for trans people, perhaps,

AM: but you okay.

DA: But it was overly broadly.

AM: Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I can't imagine any. Licensed mental healthcare provider, just like saying you have gender dysphoria

DA: It's across the country. It was across the country and it didn't end until president Obama was in his administration. Truly. Foster care is funded by the federal government. So the states get reimbursed. And so what the federal government does matters for the most part.
And I remember when I came out sort of in foster care, not really, but sort of, it's a long story. I was in DC and this organization called Lambda legal had come to child welfare for league of America, and they wanted to do something around the condition of queer kids and care. And you have delinquency in foster.
Which is basically thing of jail and foster care. And I remember they asked for volunteers to help figure out what they were going to do. And it was stone cold silence in this very large room of young people. And I raised my hand. I'm like, I'll

AM: how old are you in this story?

DA: I was a teenager, but I wasn't out in other spheres of my life. This was in DC. And I was so scared because what I had experienced up to that point of foster care was just a rigorous. uh, degradation of my core humanity, and, um, even growing up in New York city at the time when I grew up homeless aside from Vietnam vets, a lot of people on the streets dying were people with HIV aids and they were all over the shelters, um, abandoned.
So coming up that way and then going to foster care where they made sure that I understood my place in the world as a lesser than, and then deciding to do something about it. Um, with Lambda legal and child welfare league of America, we founded something called the joint initiative, which was basically a trying to get a policy shift that would say the best practice to treat kids is not to treat kids for being queer, but to give them affirming care.

AM: I love that.

DA: And it was. Revelatory. So

AM: It's like, it was a radical move considering. The rules. And it was dangerous procedures at that time.

DA: It was more than radical. Like kids, you, it was dangerous to be queer and you, you really could be hurt. I was. And so when president Obama was in, in his administration, All that finally came to a head and, and some progress that been made to that point.
But I believe it was, is I wanna say a second administration. I'd have to go back and look, when we finally stopped reimbursing states for dastardly work, you know, I've, I've been really reading about the way we treated native Americans when we pulled them out of their community and, and put them in these schools and abuse them and do terrible, terrible things.
I've been thinking a lot about the slow moving genocide of queer kids in foster care for the last, whatever decades. And I don't think we've come to terms with that as a people. I don't even mean that America. I mean, a queer people, I think of us as kind of a genetic diaspora where we're all spread out and we think we're alone until we find each other.
And we have a responsibility to be more assertive, I think, as a people to help queer kids than we've done today. You said a moment ago that queer kids are overrepresented in homelessness. I think we, as a community could do so much more to pave the way, make it much more beautiful and loving than it is today.

AM: Me too.

DA: I don't think you can say that.

AM: Uh, me also. Yay. I did do a public talk once where agreeing with someone, you know, it was right after me too, had really hit. And I said, so we all, we have to say me also. Yay.

DA: I remember that thing came up and I was leaving some work for Disney and around the topic in media and I've experienced rape myself. And I remember being all these meetings where I was completely silenced because I'm a cisgendered white guy and I was not out about any of that stuff. So I would just sit there and I'd put this mask on where I was not allowed to have. Expressive facial emotions or like be triggered.

AM: I don't have the opportunity for that, cuz my face is a Muppet, but continue about what it's like.

DA: I go to the bathroom and I would like just like choke up and like be a bit of a mess. It was hard to be a true ally when you, you are so ashamed of that shit that you're so inhibited from actually bringing your full self to a dialogue and using your powers for good. I tried and I think I'm more effective now that that stuff is out.

AM: You know, people who are still like figuring out what is Post Shame. Like, what's this guy continue talking about, I get to Find Your Light videos and everything. But like, what is, you know, Post Shame about hearing other people's stories. Is this amazing gateway drug first step, and that then we get these movements, like hashtag me too.
Yeah. And you start to hear more and more and more. And once you realize that it's this waterfall of stories of people having gone through it, you finally get to say yours. And then it becomes less toxic mm-hmm less spiky and then it hurts less. Absolutely. And now you can be David Ambrose. Mm-hmm, going on a press tour using the words, homelessness, foster care, rape abuse, and all these things, but you're integrating it really well into where you're at and I applaud you for that.
That's what being a Post Shame warrior is. So I think you're a badass and about the Obama stuff, I just wanted to shine a light on the idea. I didn't realize that once you came out as gay or were diagnosed as gay, technically while you were in foster care, that then you were not allowed to be placed with other kids, like you weren't allowed to be in any homes with multiple kids. Am I correct?

DA: It's so interesting. So when you're placed in a home, the foster parents get obviously a lot of say.

AM: No, I don't know what you mean by that. So like, like, like they're, it's, they're allowed to be like, we want a blue-eyed one. Yeah. Like I don't, what

DA: Not blue-eyed but they're allowed to say so all of us and in the it's a state run system, so every state is different.
And even within states, it's sometimes run by the counties. So in the states I was in, for instance, one of them you are, you're basically given a number and it's a ranking based on different factors. So, you know, 1 through 14 and so 14 would be like really challenging. And so if you have disabilities, if you have behavioral outbursts, if you have a history of violence, you might be higher ranked and therefore certain homes are qualified to have you.
Other ones are not. And so, I mean up until recently, and like Lord knows where we're going in this country, but being gay was a serious issue. It's a crime and we couldn't have sex in something like 30 states until the two thousands. Yeah. So foster parents were told like you are going to get a kid with this problem.
Because it's gonna be treated, don't worry in therapy and all these things. And so you could not find a place. Because would you taken a kid?

AM: You can't actually ask me these questions because I am a person who is like constant. No, I'm constantly flirting with the idea of being a foster parent. And I don't wanna be pushed into that.

DA: Start with Casa. Let's do it.

AM: I don't wanna be pushed into that in this interview because I'm like, I'm busy making my podcast. I don't have time to have a kid. Yeah. I'm like. Teasing myself. This is all happening in real time. It's very uncomfortable. I think I want to be a foster parent. I just don't know how to like, make it happen in my life.

DA: Well, ask me a question in two minutes. I'll finish this one. so, um, The reality of it was that I was not placed most often with other foster families. I was put in facilities. My first placement in foster care was, I don't know what other to call it than a kiddie jail. And, uh, I remember very specifically going in there and the way I was treated, the way they spoke to me, the way they called me miss Ambrose's, it was very clear, very quickly that I was there and why I was there.
And that's where my first assaults happened and, and went on for years. I had two, one placement with my brother and sister, which did not work out cuz the family was horrendous. And then a second family that I found that I lived with for a while and they were beautiful. Wonderful. And I'm still in touch with them.
Um, but in general it was not a place where you integrated queer kids readily, especially if you think about, I was in New York, new England, if you think about the rest of the country, what that might have been like, I don't know.

AM: The issue of naming comes up in this podcast. Sometimes I think more and more people we realize have some kind of story around what they want to be called and it's not a usual conversation, you know, it's, it's usually something that just happens really fast. Hi, my name's Adam. Hi, my name's David, moving on to, you know, some meatier conversation. Where are you at with your name? Because I heard that you have had a name change as well.

DA: There's been so much dialogue and conversation around names, especially as it relates to our trans brothers and sisters and, and others.
And I have such a respect for whatever people wanna be called. So the original first line of the book, which was edited, um, was, are you ready?

AM: I'm ready for the first draft first sentence of the book. And that has been changed. So you heard it here first. So this is a breaking news podcast now.

DA: There it is. My name is Hugh John David Ambrose McMankill Duff. But for the first five years of my life, I thought my name was, I should have had an abortion
And not, that's like a shock in a sentence. And I think it's too shocking as a first sentence. So when you read it, you'll see it's a much nicer entry into the book.

AM: I have. Sure. But this one's very powerful. The one you just shared was very powerful.

DA: Yeah. And I think names are powerful. And what people say to you, and especially when you're younger, So when I was around, uh, I don't know my exact age before I was 10, somewhere between five and eight. My mom, I was Hugh. My name is my first name is Hugh. My mom decided I was gonna be converted to Judaism because they're more powerful and wealthy. So,

AM: oh, okay. Uh,

DA: According to my mom.

AM: no, I just love like, like you're for those watching on YouTube, my face is just like, uh, uh, uh, yeah. Uh, okay. No, this is a cool, like inverted, um, racist CISM antisemitism thing. Okay. Go off sis.

DA: Oh my God. Let me just have the caveat. This, these are not my beliefs.

AM: I like that.

DA: I am a child at this point, so my mom's like,

AM: you're a minor, you're a minor in this story.

DA: So she tells me, she's like, oh, when you go to school today, like the minute that I was in school, she's like, I want you to look at other boys' penises in the bathroom. And I'm like, okay. So I go, and I'm not, I'm not sexual at this time. I'm just kind of like a boy, a child. And I look and she's like, look for the Jewish ones. And I have no idea what she's talking about. And so this very nice gym teacher comes in and he's like, what are you doing? Cause I've been staying there for quite a while.
And, and I told him, I'm like looking for Jewish penises and he very nicely is like, Okay, we're gonna have to ask you to leave out. That's how you, he walked me out.

AM: Also this story is me, but like in my twenties, do we leave that in or cut that out? Okay. We'll decide later. We'll decide later.

DA: Speaking of uncut.

AM: So, uh, oh my God. yes! It's David Ambrose is here for jokes. Okay. Continue. So, you go home and you're like, so I got in trouble for that mom,

DA: So yeah. And she's like, okay. So she took me to get circumcised and I was eight ish. And I want people to, to read the story, but you know, in the book, but it did not go well. I want, I want on the record, everyone to know that it all works and it's beautiful now. Okay. I have many people who will atest, um,

AM: The Yelp reviews are in it all worked out five star,

DA: Five stars. Um, so it, it was really, I didn't have good aftercare and it was a shotty job and,

AM: oh my gosh, David.

DA: So my mom rechristened me, David, at that point. And

AM: this is so complicated

DA: In the acknowledgements of the book, there's a couple people listed, but one of them is HJDA and that's Hugh John David . And I listed him there. Cause I sometimes think about who that boy would've been. Had he been loved and would he have been more artistic?
Would he have been this? Would he have been that. Uh, and I think about him cuz he is like a fork in the road. That moment was a fork in the road for me, where I had to leave something behind this child because I was hurt in the most profound way. Uh, and it almost killed me. It, uh, it almost killed me, not emotionally, physically. Don't have surgery when you're homeless. So, um, I think about that boy here,

AM: I'm giggling for the audience members who too are like

DA: Squeamish

AM: try, although they're squirming becuase yeah. But they care. I mean, you know, this, you feel that so many people care, but, um, girl you've been through it. So I'm just like here to tell you, like, I love your journey.
And I, you know, I also love that you're on the other side. Yeah. And are sharing it. We, we do need these stories and we do need to hear them. And by being open, you're being Post Shame. Yeah. That this is that same thing of every boardroom you've ever been in where you haven't shared a piece of yourself, cuz you're like, eh,
It'll just be cleaner if I just are easy or rather, you know, more frictionless. So I, gosh, I just applaud you for writing it all down. Thank you. Sharing it, uh, recorded and you know, live and as a friend, I know you're, you're an excellent storyteller, but I'm getting to know you even better in your public persona, as you share so much of yourself.
So everyone is lucky to know you, uh, on this book tour. Okay. So the book is called a place called home. You're a person who was once homeless. Mm-hmm what's your home situation now? Mm, I gotta know, because have you, are you like a Zillow reader before bed person? Are you like, like now obsessed with real estate or is it actually all sorted? And you're like out of your, like, reading into it too much?

DA: Uh, you know, the older I. I think my porn is real estate. , uh,

AM: She's a Zillow queen. She's a street, easy queen,

DA: You know, porn hub or something. I'm at like, uh, what's on Redfin. uh, what are my search results? Swipe left.

AM: Um, oh, right. I always bring up, what are your search terms? Cuz mine stepdad, uncle coach. And your search terms are culdesac, solar,

DA: uh, I'm a baby daddy. Like I, I got, I got children to raise. So what's my home situation. Well, first I'll tell you one of the original names of the book that I there's a couple names that I left on the way one was, this will only hurt for a minute, which is this,

AM: Is that about the circumcisions story?

DA: No, it was the whole book. it's the whole book. It's actually how I would describe life. Uh

AM: uh, is that true? Is that something you actually ascribe to? Like, absolutely, because we think our feelings are going to last so long and it's like, I promise physiologically. You can only. This emotion for a little while

DA: we move past joy so quickly. I think we focus on that person that cut us off in traffic. And we don't focus on the fact that we live in a country where the roads are paved and we have safety and we can drive and most people get to work today. Just fine. We focus on the jerk, who for a minute forgot himself. So I, I think that's a state of being, and I try not to be in that place, but

AM: it'll only hurt for a minute.

DA: Mm. But I, what is home? So where am I home wise? I own a home. I love my home.

AM: I love this for you.

DA: I think ultimately the place I called home, to give away nothing of the book is in myself and my family that ultimately even homeless. I had a home, which was my inner world and my family and our messed up love and the complicated world that we lived in.
And the first chapter is us walking one night. And almost dying from exposure and we ended up at a place and

AM: by exposure, you mean to the cold?

DA: Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty bad. And I remember that night so well, cuz it's the first time I thought I might die and I was, I think it was four and I didn't have the words, but I remember I that's how I felt, even though I didn't really understand it.
And I, we found a spot and I curled back into what I called in the book, a dog pile of my family covered in lice filthy, uh, just a horrible condition, but we were in a pile and that's how, that's where my home was that night. And that's where my home always would be. So I think my home is a beautiful home in Los Angeles and I'm very happy, but home is what you make of it and where you make of it.
And I love about queer community. You know, we curate our family, you know, we have our chosen family and our,

AM: we do, we do.

DA: I think your home is the same way.

AM: Yeah. I mean, chosen family. Uh, I talk about it so openly. And, uh, I've talked to my primary family about the way that I talk about that because you, you might hear me talk about it and think I'm like the only family is chosen family, because it's just so dynamic and rich, but knowing how many people are on a journey, just looking for their chosen family. I feel so lucky to have a really, really, really robust chosen family. And that chosen family also helps make this podcast and, uh, make Post Shame visible to the world. So in lieu of an act two, this is how we'll wrap up today. You have worked in Hollywood for a long time.
We're not gonna choose like a specific person, but I have an assumption that you have actually interacted with tons of people in the closet. That either in business context or, you know, famous people context that, that you see people in the closet, 2022. it seems like coming out is like a Rite of passage for so many people.
Especially, you know, gosh, kids coming up, like they have heart stopper on Netflix. Like, they just have all this like ways to see themselves reflected. I bet there are people who are listening to this who are struggling to come out about anything, be it bisexuality, because they're enjoying passing.
Be it, you know, naming wishing that they would come out about different name conventions. You've seen a lot of folks in the closet. What's, what's your advice to people in the closet in 2022, when it, we feel like we have all this progress, but for some folks, it might not feel that way.

DA: I try in always approach things with, um, pragmatic empathy and so

AM: Pragmatic empathy. Okay.

DA: Yeah. It doesn't negate your responsibility. We as a society have set up these rules and these games, and then we expect people to buck them and do the right thing. And, and that we find our champion that we, we worship the rules are really heavy and they're really hard to buck. And the risk you take after working so hard to do and achieve whatever is, is a big risk to take
And as someone who basically came out about a lot of things in my life at my late thirties, I try and have empathy. I'm pragmatic in that I think. When you reach a certain point or even before, if you're braver than I was that you begin to realize that you have a responsibility to do something more than yourself and, and help yourself.
And you have a responsibility to reach back up and lift people up that, uh, are lesser than you and whatever measurement that might be money, income, power, or whatever. So my pragmatic empathy is that, um, as much as I understand how scary it is, and I've interacted with these folks that you've talked about, I've interacted with people who are addicted to things.
I've, I've interacted with people that all of us know their name when they're on television every day. And do I wish they'd be out? Sure, absolutely. But we are about to have women's right to choose removed from the law and the striking down of the right to privacy, which is where our queer rights come from.
I get it. It's really scary. And if you've worked your whole life to get to X and all of a sudden you're looking at Y how is it in 2022 that we are, again, the debate of politics is LGBTQ all over again. It's exhausting. So pragmatic empathy is that I truly believe you should be brave enough to do it.
Even at risk that said, I also understand that you've worked so hard to get to where you are, whatever, wherever that is. So what do I think about it? I hate that we've created this society where it's risky to be yourself. Where can a gay actor play a straight guy on television? Sort of if they're not too gay.
Um, I don't know. I, I think we have to approach things with empathy, but at the same time I demand. That we, uh, move quicker because the kids need us to, um, I think we're all like here borrowed. I think, you know, I used to do casting in Hollywood for the stuff that I made, the content that I used to make.
And I would work with a casting, uh, director and I'd be like, I want future people. And they're like, what? I'm like, I want you to find a future person, cuz they would send me these people who are clearly categorized. Like we needed this kind of person, this kind of person and this kind of person. And they're like, what do you mean?
I'm like, I don't wanna know what race they are. I want some gender ambiguous people. I want chubby people. Like don't send me everything clearly delineated, like the alphabet. And they're like, oh, okay, Ambrose wants future people. And then I would get future people. And I think the same way, like we are, we are on their plateau.
We are on their stage. We're still here barely. And we should be brave enough to create a kind of broader space for them to come and occupy what we're currently standing. but I, I try and approach it with empathy, cuz in my late thirties I started to emote and talk about this stuff. So who am I to cast a stone?

AM: So I've only known you maybe like post this transformation, but you seem like a no Fs given kind of person, but were you always this way? Because during your come up, like let's just call it like your twenties and thirties. You did care what people thought of you. You didn't want them to see your emotion but you come off as like. I don't care kind of guy like it's all out there. Is that your transformation? Is that your journey?

DA: I might look at it slightly differently and say that in coming up, what was drilled into me at the end of many devices and fists and words. Was how worthless I was and how sick I was and all these terrible things.
And, you know, my, my brother and sister loved me and, you know, I had people in my life that loved me as well. They were, they were unfortunately the, um, the needle in the haystack, but there was a few needles and that haystack, I think what I really in coming up experience was. Be fearless and be brash and keep doing the things that bring external validation as, as you I'm sure have read in, um, the volt rage, my, my gay Bible.
And through that, I began to cultivate and curate a persona that got me what I needed and where I wanted to go. Right. And the more that was rewarded, the more I did that, but what I left on the side was kind of a deeper authenticity and an internal, uh, ability to create joy. My joy was through accomplishments.
My joy was X in order to achieve those things. I did what I had to do. And that was not, not giving no shits, but being smart enough to outplay the game. When I was a kid, I remember being in grand central and the morning rush hour coming off, uh, Metro north. And it was the early, early eighties. And people were.
It was mostly men in blue suits. Like people still wore hats and read the paper. And I was begging for money and about four feet in front of me, uh, the crowd opened up and this is a packed Concourse. And then they came behind me kind of like a, a diamond. And they didn't even look at me and I had this stark realization.
I didn't have the words them, but later on in my life, I realized that I was unplugged from this matrix, that they didn't even see me, that I was not of this world. And I always think about it in terms of when you flip a coin it's heads or tails. no. The third side is called equi poise, coin land

AM: Equa poise. That's the name of your podcast.

DA: And when the coin lands that way, that society, we all believe in it. Therefore it's a collective delusion that works, but it takes only a Donald or three to make the coin fall over. And what I realized

AM: What do you mean by Donald or three,

DA: A crazy tyrant

AM: Oh, so that guy

DA: That we are much more fragile as a society than we could possibly imagine. And I don't mean to be a democracy or Republic just to exist. And I realized that moment was there are no rules. There are no rules. There's laws of physics. Everything else is the laws of man. And it doesn't mean you should do terrible things, but that freed me, like in the matrix to fly, I realized I could make my own rules in this system that tried to murder me.
I could do my own thing and it wasn't easy. I had to exhibit certain characteristics and behaviors and approaches. I was once selected to speak at something. They said, well, you sound white. I remember thinking, I don't even know.

AM: Was that a criteria for having you on the stage? What? I,

DA: I don't know. um, but I remember I was young and I was like, uh, okay. Um, I, okay. And I didn't know what that. That is a, uh, prejudicial rule in the society. That's still grappling with racism that we all exist in. I grew up in a community that was so diverse that I didn't realize that I wasn't part of that community until I was older, regardless of like my empathy, that I did not experience what people of color experienced.
And I was younger growing up in that community. So I had to learn that even though I was living here that didn't make me X. So I think growing up, it's not that I, uh, didn't give two shits it's that I learned how to operate in a world with no rules where I had to make my own to achieve what gave me external validation.
And it wasn't until I was older that I began to cultivate this garden called David Ambrose which is the things that bring me joy. And part of that is releasing all of the shame that I have, uh, holding me back that was things done to me and things I experienced. And that's why I'm putting this book out there is to say good luck and goodbye.
uh, and hopefully this story inspires people. As I like to say. To move from empathy to action. Yeah. And the entire afterward is a game plan to change the system of poverty that families are experiencing. That's what we want. We want like good books. Like I love a good memoir, but then an appendix that's a legislative plan.

AM: So I love that. Thank you. You got it. We need that. Uh, so in closing, Mm. What do you like to be called? Seeing, seeing your name on a book is like a very confronting thing. I imagine my, my forthcoming book. Whenever it comes out, I can't wait to see the words, Adam MacLean on a cover. We cannot wait. Yeah, we cannot wait for Adam MacLean on the cover.
How do you feel seeing. I'm perceived that your name was assigned to you in this, uh, action from your mother. Yeah. But have you reclaimed it, do you love seeing it written down? Do you like people calling out David or do you, do you have like a cute pet name that when we see you on the street or when people who listen to this and they see you, or they go to a book signing and they say like, Hey HJC or excuse me, H J D you know, uh, what do you wanna be called now?

DA: Just call me maybe no, um,

AM: Or as Ru Paul says, yeah, doesn't matter what you call me just as long as you call me

DA: Gay men. I mean, amen. um, if you can't love yourself,

AM: How the hell you gotta love somebody else? Can I get it? Amen.

DA: Gay men. Um, David, I wanna for me. I respect everybody's naming journey and pronoun journey. All of it. It's super important. But for me, just for me, it's the least important thing. I want us to be talking about the issue I want us to be.

AM: I love, I love this. I'm like, like spending all this time, going over it. And you're like, Adam, it's, it's kind of the least important part.

DA: No, to me.

AM: And I say that again, cause I, I love it.

DA: I've been part of so many conversations with trans brothers and sisters where I'm trying to understand the whole pronoun thing. This was a couple years ago and it took me a while to like, get it not to perform and do it cuz I switched immediately to understand. Yeah. But to understand it,

AM: But you were waiting for it to like you were waiting to feel it

DA: Names and these things can have power.
They don't have power over me and. I'm David Ambrose. It's who I've been for 30 something years. And I'm proud of being David Ambrose's and I worked very hard to make that mean something. And so I am in love with that name. I also think about, uh, who those other people might have been. Those other names.
But I don't, uh, I don't have remorse. I love the life that I've loved. I think it's been, uh, forest gump, meets hill billy meets precious. And in that , I've had quite an interesting life so far. And I think that is a journey that David Ambrose has been on. So I love, I love that I have that, uh, moniker associated with this, this crazy journey.

AM: So as a part of your chosen family, I'm putting your book on blast and I am so excited to read it this fall and can't wait for everyone to pre-order it. And because you work at Amazon , we will simply say pre-order it on Amazon. I'm not gonna give that IndieBound plug or that go to your local bookstore. You can just pre-order it on Amazon and love it. However you wanna get it. However you wanna get it, put it on your Kindle.

DA: Put it on Shivali, audible bookstore in Largemont village, Los Angeles, where I'll get mine.

AM: Thank you so much for doing this interview. Thank you so much for spending the time and, and showing us your whole self.

DA: Thank you.

AM: And I want you to know, I love that whole self. It's been so awesome to have you here.

DA: Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate being here.

AM: Y'all Peepadoodles. I am still breathing so deeply after that conversation special. Thanks to David for doing this episode. In the show notes, I will include links to the organization, Casa NYC, that he was honored at and a link to pre-order his book, A Place Called Home.
Find Your Light is made by rad empathetic. Very cool humans.
Our brand design is by Vita and Saloni
Our social media manager is Jose Rodriguez Solis who is on Instagram and TikTok @ cacidoe that's C A C I D O E.
And our theme music, composer and editor is Zach Walker. Have I mentioned how much I love the theme music.
I love our theme music. I just bop around to it. If you're listening to this in the shower, I hope you are dancing around a little bit. And my name is Adam MacLean I'm on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, all the things @ adammacattack and Post Shame, a reminder. No matter how you're feeling up down or sideways, just find some light, find the light source, turn towards that light.
Feel it on your face. Get, get it, get it. Live it. Live it. Live it. Find Your Light until next time. Love y'all. Bye.